What's your Strategy?
https://forums.matrixgames.com:443/
https://forums.matrixgames.com:443/viewtopic.php?f=10149&t=393735
Sorry, not sure if you disagree with my points or having a giggle.Darojax wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:37 pm Artillery is too good! (Says an amateur pc gamer with no real life experience).
Still though, please reduce the effectiveness of artillery. Regular 155mm ammo takes out half your Red Army tank company with two volleys, unless it's dug in in HOLD mode ... argh.
Also, helos die too easily.
One important feature currently missing from FCSS is the absence of morale/readiness drops beyond direct damage. This leaves artillery with no "suppression" effect other than direct damage.
Totally agree. Artillery needs to act as area denial. When you see the spotting rounds you need to make a decision. Risk the artillery or lose the advantageous position. Right now there is no decision, just get blasted instantly.Comcikda wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:55 amOne important feature currently missing from FCSS is the absence of morale/readiness drops beyond direct damage. This leaves artillery with no "suppression" effect other than direct damage.
The devs explained that this was on the plan, so now it completely ruined my day when I bombarded a defending US tank platoon with hundreds of 122mm howitzers to no avail. They still accurately took out any enemy that tried to charge at them.
I apologize, I realize that was a bit unclear. I agree very much with your post! The "amateur pc gamer" was a reference to myself. : )byzantine1990 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:22 pm Sorry, not sure if you disagree with my points or having a giggle.
Thank you for taking the time to read my way too long post. The issue here is counterplay. In real life, a unit would see the spotting rounds and have to make a decision to stay or run. In game you do not get to make that decision. The vast majority of the damage is done in the first volley. As I mentioned in this post, it restricts you to a single decision. Stay dug in because your unit will be destroyed otherwise.MikeJ19 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:57 pm I am a retired artillery officer and instructor.
Overall, I think this is one of the best games for artillery matters.
The delay for fire missions is about five minutes - in most cases. This is the time it takes to adjust fire. What you see on the game map is the actual fire for effect of the entire firing unit. I have not fired artillery missions in anger, but I do know that most studies show that the first few rounds after adjustment are the most lethal - as the soldiers have not taken cover fully yet.
In the 80's, both NATO and the WP had many methods to shorten target adjustment. Both sides had laser range finders and were constantly updating weather conditions to shorten or remove the requirement to adjust.
Also, many studies indicate that artillery has a lot of kills. In this game, what we see as kills can also be sub-units falling out. So some of the artillery kills will be from soldiers not being able to continue to fight.
The lethality of 155 (and 152) is much greater than for 105 or 122. In this case size does matter.
I hope that at some point the game engine will allow players to record targets. A recorded target does not need adjustment, as the data for the target are already known. With recorded targets, the mission would be even quicker with fire for effect happening in one to two minutes.
All the best,
Mike
I still have no issue with lethality from artillery but right now there is no counterplay. You don't get to make the decision to move by SOP or manual movement. If there is no counterplay it means there is only one viable reaction. That doesn't make for an interesting game.22sec wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:38 pm I wonder if a lot of the people bring up about FC isn't intertwined with the "Fallen Out" status? In standalone scenarios especially, the Fallen Out and Dead status units are the same thing in terms of gameplay - they're gone for that scenario. It's only in FC's campaigns that Fallen Out matters because those units can return in the following scenario of the campaign. The discussion around long distance engagement kills also should include mention of this I believe as well.
I gotcha. I was rambling on top of it about something on my mind lately.byzantine1990 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:34 pmI still have no issue with lethality from artillery but right now there is no counterplay. You don't get to make the decision to move by SOP or manual movement. If there is no counterplay it means there is only one viable reaction. That doesn't make for an interesting game.22sec wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:38 pm I wonder if a lot of the people bring up about FC isn't intertwined with the "Fallen Out" status? In standalone scenarios especially, the Fallen Out and Dead status units are the same thing in terms of gameplay - they're gone for that scenario. It's only in FC's campaigns that Fallen Out matters because those units can return in the following scenario of the campaign. The discussion around long distance engagement kills also should include mention of this I believe as well.
I understand. I don't have as much issue with falling out being the same as dead. How would you change it?22sec wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:35 pmI gotcha. I was rambling on top of it about something on my mind lately.byzantine1990 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:34 pmI still have no issue with lethality from artillery but right now there is no counterplay. You don't get to make the decision to move by SOP or manual movement. If there is no counterplay it means there is only one viable reaction. That doesn't make for an interesting game.22sec wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:38 pm I wonder if a lot of the people bring up about FC isn't intertwined with the "Fallen Out" status? In standalone scenarios especially, the Fallen Out and Dead status units are the same thing in terms of gameplay - they're gone for that scenario. It's only in FC's campaigns that Fallen Out matters because those units can return in the following scenario of the campaign. The discussion around long distance engagement kills also should include mention of this I believe as well.
As Battalion / Regiment / Division commander in your HQ, your counterplay (or dilemma) is to either devote some of your artillery to counter-battery, or to put all artillery in support of the ground units. Putting artillery on counter-battery may take out the hostile artillery units (if detected and within range). Putting artillery on counter-battery makes them unavailable for anything else during that time.byzantine1990 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:34 pm I still have no issue with lethality from artillery but right now there is no counterplay. You don't get to make the decision to move by SOP or manual movement. If there is no counterplay it means there is only one viable reaction. That doesn't make for an interesting game.
Why can't we have counterplay AND counter battery? There are plenty of scenarios where one side does not have access to artillery that can reach enemy artillery.WildCatNL wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:46 pmAs Battalion / Regiment / Division commander in your HQ, your counterplay (or dilemma) is to either devote some of your artillery to counter-battery, or to put all artillery in support of the ground units. Putting artillery on counter-battery may take out the hostile artillery units (if detected and within range). Putting artillery on counter-battery makes them unavailable for anything else during that time.byzantine1990 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:34 pm I still have no issue with lethality from artillery but right now there is no counterplay. You don't get to make the decision to move by SOP or manual movement. If there is no counterplay it means there is only one viable reaction. That doesn't make for an interesting game.
I still struggle to visualize this (but I'm not an artillery expert).byzantine1990 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:13 pm It comes back to the first situation I referenced of the tank on the hill. Giving the tank time to move before getting hit provides meaningful counterplay to both sides and it's more realistic.
With the war in Ukraine we now have a wealth of footage showing AFV’s under artillery fire. Even with a drone observer it takes quite a few u guided rounds to actually get in target. We can also see that artillery needs to be within a few meters to actually damage or track a vehicle.WildCatNL wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:28 pmI still struggle to visualize this (but I'm not an artillery expert).byzantine1990 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:13 pm It comes back to the first situation I referenced of the tank on the hill. Giving the tank time to move before getting hit provides meaningful counterplay to both sides and it's more realistic.
Either the tank's hex is observed by a spotter or it is is not.
If the tank's hex is under observation by a spotter, the spotter in many cases will be able to shift the fires to the tanks, even when the tanks try to bail out after seeing the initial rounds land.
If the tank's hex is not under observation by a spotter, there won't be spotting rounds as they don't serve a purpose.
Yes, there may be exceptions using counter-battery radar / WLR to shift fires to specific targets on locations which are not directly observed. And yes, in theory, if the tanks guess right where the spotter is and the terrain allows it and they get coordinated, they might be able to reach locations outside observation.
But in general, I don't see why units should be able run away from spotting rounds and not be hit anymore.
The game models the ability of the target unit to move into available cover after the initial round, and provides a protection bonus in subsequent rounds.
I agree on that22sec wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:38 pm I wonder if a lot of the people bring up about FC isn't intertwined with the "Fallen Out" status? In standalone scenarios especially, the Fallen Out and Dead status units are the same thing in terms of gameplay - they're gone for that scenario. It's only in FC's campaigns that Fallen Out matters because those units can return in the following scenario of the campaign. The discussion around long distance engagement kills also should include mention of this I believe as well.