On Map Aircraft?

[dpabrams]

I'm toying with some scenario design. Trying to figure out on map aircraft. I stationed some C-47 gunships, O-1 bird dogs and A-1 sky raiders at the new Pleiku air base. All aircraft were placed on the runway and we're able to take off using page up keys. On map aircraft are extremely lethal that was my first observation. Once the aircraft reached low fuel status I attempted to land them on the Pleiku runway with page down commands. Only the A-1 sky raiders were able to land on the runway. They were placed next to supply units but never became resupplied. The remaining aircraft we're not able to land on the runway but we're left hovering more or less at nap of earth in a runway hex. They stayed at this level and became disrupted. Just curious why the A-1’s could land and refuel and not the others?

Great game- Pete

[Jason Petho]

I'm not sure if you used a Landing Zone for the aircraft on the runways, that's usually a must even if they imply helicopter use, they are used for all on map aircraft. You do need to have a supply or headquarters unit in the same hex in order of the supply to work.

That might explain the inability to land again, especially if you weren't able to land.

I'm not sure about the A-1s though.

You can also post your scenario and I'm happy to take a look.

THANK YOU for your interest and support! Hopefully we can sort it out!

[dpabrams]

I've looked into this further and here are a couple of more observations. A-1 (105063) Are listed as a OffboardAirplane. These units can be placed on a runway hex at Pleiku AB and will resupply and take off and land on the runways that have an HQ and supply. This seems reasonable as they were stationed at Pleiku. Not sure about the capabilities listed as OffboardAirplane for the A-1 but they work on map. Lethality is very high with on map aircraft. These units will eliminate entire platoons in the open. This is not the case when used as off map airstrikes. I would like to see all airfields as default helicopter landing zones (LZs) without designating an LZ in the editor. It seems odd placing headquarters and supply units on runways. I would like to see aircraft able to resupply from an adjacent supply per unit not deployed on a runway.

Thanks- Pete

[Jason Petho]

Great suggestions, Pete!

There is different math behind the scenes for on map vs off map air attacks, hence the difference in attack strengths.

It's a good idea about defaulting airstrips with landing areas headquarters, I'm not sure how that could be implemented, that is something that Crossroads would have to look at.

[dpabrams]

I have more suggestions if you don't mind. It would be nice to have hot key functions in the editor. It can be tedious in the pop down to load/unload units for example. I cannot find anything on selection of multiple units outside of a hex. It would be nice to grab multiple deployed stacks of aircraft to move to the off-map air unit menu. There's also a lot of keystrokes involved when you want to delete units from the off-map air menu. It would be nice to check a group of aircraft in the off-map menu to delete. I appreciate your responsiveness and dedication to this masterpiece. Boring point of fact. I was part of the original testing group for Talonsoft’s East Front and more Battleground games.

Regards,

Pete

[Jason Petho]

Great wish list items for sure! Thank you for sharing! Those are things that annoy me too, I've just gotten used to it. *laughs*

Oh wow, that's awesome to hear about the old testing days. How fun! I hope you're enjoying where the series is going and improvements we're trying to implement.

[Crossroads]

I've looked into this further and here are a couple of more observations. A-1 (105063) Are listed as a OffboardAirplane. These units can be placed on a runway hex at Pleiku AB and will resupply and take off and land on the runways that have an HQ and supply. This seems reasonable as they were stationed at Pleiku. Not sure about the capabilities listed as OffboardAirplane for the A-1 but they work on map. Lethality is very high with on map aircraft. These units will eliminate entire platoons in the open. This is not the case when used as off map airstrikes. I would like to see all airfields as default helicopter landing zones (LZs) without designating an LZ in the editor. It seems odd placing headquarters and supply units on runways. I would like to see aircraft able to resupply from an adjacent supply per unit not deployed on a runway.

Thanks- Pete

Thank you for reporting this. I am not sure what goes in here, as all eyes were pretty much on the Helicopter / Gunship flight modes and getting them right.

We may have missed something with XOnBoardAirplance and XOffBoardAirplane unit flag implementations. My assumption was XOffBoardAIrplanes were strictly for Airstrikes, but Jason told me they can be placed on map as ground targets. I had no idea you can play with them on map.

I will keep my eye on what you and Jason discover here, thanks again.

[dpabrams]

Put a A-1 Skyraider Squadron at Pleiku with a Btl HQ and supply (on the runway), set to ground level in the editor and enjoy 18 turns in the air erasing Charlie. Way more lethal than off-map by a factor of 4-6x, I would say a bit overkill or off map is underrepresented in lethality. Probable somewhere in between . Also handy for target for VC mortars . These raids did occur historically so a nice feature to have. The Free World forces can loose a lot of points losing air assets on the ground. Base security and fortifications is serious business.

[Crossroads]

Put a A-1 Skyraider Squadron at Pleiku with a Btl HQ and supply (on the runway), set to ground level in the editor and enjoy 18 turns in the air erasing Charlie. Way more lethal than off-map by a factor of 4-6x, I would say a bit overkill or off map is underrepresented in lethality. Probable somewhere in between . Also handy for target for VC mortars . These raids did occur historically so a nice feature to have. The Free World forces can loose a lot of points losing air assets on the ground. Base security and fortifications is serious business.

Yes, I don't believe there is anything stopping the scenario designer for placing them on map, but preferrably as Fixed ground targets, as it is my understanding they are not intended to be playable on map. That is for the XOnBoardAirplanes in the Orders of Battle.

I don't think it will be feasible to code a restriction for the unit flag though. Jason can correct me but as said, they are not designed for that purpose.

What you also described in the opening post is XOnBoardAirplanes do not refuel. That sounds like a bug, I will add it to the list. Thanks again, all this is very good to know.

[dpabrams]

I can confirm that the O-1 Birddog 116502 listed as a OnBoardAirplane will not land on an airstrip and will get a “Cannot land except at LZs” message and for that matter is unrealistic as it is will not land on an on map LZ, same goes for the AC47 106571. However a A-37 Dragonfly 105087 listed as OffBoardAirplane will land on an airstrip with a HQ and supply unit, and WILL refuel and rearm as intended, I think. Also, these on map aircraft seem to have a lot of ammunition, I have not tested beyond 3-4 turns but they do not run out of bombs or rockets after multiple turns.

Pete

[Jason Petho]

I can confirm that the O-1 Birddog 116502 listed as a OnBoardAirplane will not land on an airstrip and will get a “Cannot land except at LZs” message and for that matter is unrealistic as it is will not land on an on map LZ, same goes for the AC47 106571. However a A-37 Dragonfly 105087 listed as OffBoardAirplane will land on an airstrip with a HQ and supply unit, and WILL refuel and rearm as intended, I think. Also, these on map aircraft seem to have a lot of ammunition, I have not tested beyond 3-4 turns but they do not run out of bombs or rockets after multiple turns.

Pete

That's why the you need landing zones at an airfield, for operations. The landing zones are generally designed for helicopter operations and is a fairly new addition so there will be kinks to work out, it wasn't intended to be used as an airplane operations simulator.

The on map aircraft will not run out of bombs/rockets, unless they go out of ammo status. I don't recall if I coded the aircraft with that flag, I would have to do an in-depth look at the unit flags. The normal on map aircraft usually have a lower attack value than the offboard aircraft, but again, I would have to double check.

It's interesting to see you experimenting and seeing the results!

[dpabrams]

That's why the you need landing zones at an airfield, for operations.

As you know airfields did serve as LZs frequently in places like Oasis, Halloway and Enari. I like the idea of it also because there are so many helicopters based at places like Halloway and Enari that the whole base can look like LZs, when airfields served a dual purpose. That is for fixed wing aircraft and the storage, servicing and operations of helicopters.

Pete

[dpabrams]

it wasn't intended to be used as an airplane operations simulator.

The on map aircraft will not run out of bombs/rockets, unless they go out of ammo status. I don't recall if I coded the aircraft with that flag, I would have to do an in-depth look at the unit flags. The normal on map aircraft usually have a lower attack value than the offboard aircraft, but again, I would have to double check.

I appreciate the double check. With the scale of Vietnam and the inclusion of many AB locations, it's a nice if not intended addition.

Pete