Over Toe units?

[bomanz]

I am currently playing several games as the German player. It is currently early in the war, turn 7 and 11 and 6 on the games. I have noticed that I am encountering Soviet units with absurd man power, I have played as the Soviet and have a grasp of what the standard sized soviet inf/cav div. is respective of the time period in question. These units after the combat solution comes up I see that the single Cav div. with two support Art. has a manpower level of 16k men, and a few hundred guns. I have seen Inf div with near 20k men in them. Is there something I am missing? When I played as the soviet the strongest Div. Cav unit I could get was a 8k men from the far east.

I guess what I am asking if this is just a glitch, on the combat results showing more men then are actually there? Similar to when It shows no actual planes flew to the battle but still shows that some were lost?

The thing that has me twisting is It is only when playing a few opponents, I have played/playing over 10 games as the German player, and several as the soviet. It only happens on a few players, and never as a soviet player.

Any info on what I am doing wrong as the soviet, as I cant seem to get my toe above the max of say 14k from the far east div.

Thanks
Bo

[loki100]

this thread raised the issue

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... =&#5124659

the OP offered this explanation for what he was doing:

ORIGINAL: ToxicThug11

...

By disbanding and lowering TOE of other tank and mechanized divisions I am able to create high TOE monsters very quickly.

must confess I can't follow the logic but it seems to be relying on some quirk of the game system. I've seen over TOE Soviet units depending on TOE changes and so on, but this reads like a deliberate set of actions

[Feltan]

Is this simply a trade-off? A player chooses to have a few larger units than many under-strength units by disbanding understrength units. If so, it seems like a legitimate course of action; however, I am not sure of the value of doing so myself. As the Soviets, having a certain "counter density" seems critical … even if they are crap.

Regards,
Feltan

[EwaldvonKleist]

During testing in 2018 I had similiar cases. IIRC what happened was that the unit had new slots after a TOE-upgrade amd filled them, but did not shed old redundamt elements from no longer existing slots, leading to overstrength in terms of humanpower.

Can't say if this is the reason here or not.

[bomanz]

Understanding the trade off of merging units into a working fighting force makes sense, but this seems like it is basically mashing two full str div together, to make a super unit? I figured toe limits set a max?

Can I merge two German panzer Div together to make a 30k unit with 500 tanks? No. Yet here I am facing Soviet Cav div with 14k men. Will this exploit work when merging soviet corps?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: bomanz

Understanding the trade off of merging units into a working fighting force makes sense, but this seems like it is basically mashing two full str div together, to make a super unit? I figured toe limits set a max?

Can I merge two German panzer Div together to make a 30k unit with 500 tanks? No. Yet here I am facing Soviet Cav div with 14k men. Will this exploit work when merging soviet corps?

its basically an exploit that relies on the target unit having vacant TOE slots. So a German Pzr division at the start has a few missing elements but is basically filled out, so no, this trick doesn't work.

afaik, no it wouldn't work with the Corps for the same reason, they don't have empty lines in their TOE that might then pick up all sorts of stuff that can be matched to the profile.

That flexibility is basically a good idea, it means if you have lots of something in the pool, formations will ignore their ideal asset (which may be lacking) and adopt something that is available.

as far as I understand the other thread, this is a bit of game system abuse. It doesn't happen by accident, a player gets a very short term gain off it, but the resulting units are fragile and will shed the excess when their underlying TOE shifts. Basically its the sort of thing a Soviet player who wants to win by T8 might decide to do

[bomanz]

ORIGINAL: loki100

this thread raised the issue




Yep you have to know how to do it and execute it, I have played several games as the Soviet and I have yet to achieve this. I have merged units that are basically wiped out to make a unit that is close to ready, but this is just a exploit.

As the other thread discusses making super soviet Tank units to crush Panzer units is a exploit, I was wondering how they beat the crap out of panzer units, so easily in my game literally had a full str panzer div reduced to a shell in one turn.

Guess I will just resign those games that are using this exploit, unless the developer is willing to let me make super Panzer divisions to counter it??????

[loki100]

tend to agree, it can't happen by accident, its probably not a loophole that can be easily closed (though its now known and on the list) and its pretty gamey as an approach

[ToxicThug11]

One day when I am able to post images without the forum stopping me I will show you guys how to do it
Assign them to a front (not an army), put them on a decent railyard and set them to refit. That's all that's needed to be done really. You can create 155 toe Rifle Divisions, Cavalry and Tanks from turn 3 which means you can endlessly break pockets. It definitely has a trade off though. The more Toe you concentrate, a single hit from a strong German division can wipe out all the AFVs, and if these units are pocketed it is very sad.

[ToxicThug11]

I discovered this as an accident as I like to assign divisions in the rear to fronts and concentrate toe into divisions by disbanding / lowering TOE in non threatened sectors. If this is actually an exploit then I will stop doing it. I assigned my divisions to fronts for better admin rolls, not intentionally to exploit the game, although it is questionable whether moving TOE where you need it is actually an exploit.

[ToxicThug11]

Hopefully this works. I had to cut the image to make it upload, as the file was too large.

Here you can see a single tank division with 599 AFVs. The other one has 397 AFVs. In just two divisions there are 1000 AFVs.

Note their location on Smolensk, with level 4 priority. Also note that this has been accomplished on turn 3 in a MP game.

The 599 AFV division has a CV of 18.7, and the 397 AFV division has a CV of 7.2. With additional infantry, artillery and air support this can open any pocket on turn 3.

A highly mobile way to bring 25.9 CV from a tight space. These divisions can reliably cause Germans to retreat with just hasty attacks, with pretty horrendous AFV losses for the Germans.

[&o] Grigory Kulik

[Stamb]

I was checking how Axis AI performs in Road to Leningrad and i also had over 100% TOE rifle divisions just by stacking them with army HQ, supply priority 4, on top of depot with supply priority 4.
And as we know Soviets have insane supply capabilities so its not a problem.

I had no need of lowering TOE or any other actions. In GC it might be needed.

[Jango32]

Posting for ToxicThug:

[Stamb]

One more turn in an assault army and they will have 100CPP thus even better stats. Poor Axis player.

[ToxicThug11]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

One more turn in an assault army and they will have 100CPP thus even better stats. Poor Axis player.

Can you still make assault fronts / armies before 1942?

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: ToxicThug11

ORIGINAL: Stamb

One more turn in an assault army and they will have 100CPP thus even better stats. Poor Axis player.

Can you still make assault fronts / armies before 1942?

Manual on ftp is outdated and I don't have access to a game right now to check it in a game folder. I though that at least 1 army can be set to an Assault, maybe I am wrong.


This over 100% TOE thing can happen during any period of the game? Not only in first N turns?

[ToxicThug11]

No idea as the latest I've had a game go is turn 25ish, I dont see why rifle divisions couldn't go over toe later than that though.

[IDGBIA]

some of the tank divs that start near Smolensk have something like 200% of bt-7s or t26s so if you just refit them on t1 they fill up alot and have like 250-300 avfs each, also I hit you with 4 divs 3 tank divs and 1 mech div into your tank div, also soviet arty early war has loads of extra support elments which I think join and inflate the numbers a bit but in regards to our game specifically I didnt intentionally exploit or disband and manipulate the max toe at all I just put the tank divs on a depot on refit and they kept their 200


again if you are talking about our game your panzer division was under full ammo, had fatigue not full cpp and was on clear terrain and I attacked with with 3 fresh tank/mech and some extra inf divs under rokkosovsky swapped into the corp hq under toblukin in the army hq, the attack represented a significant effort in terms of APs, leaders and tanks (1k tanks is over 10% of all soviet afvs after the initial pockets get cleared)all focused on a single point, I think its a fair trade off and you could always do it yourself if you think its worth doing.


heres a picture of the 17th tank div right at the start of the game so like you dont even have to do anything to make this threatening, playing axis you gotta keep in mind sov has 2 of these things near Smolensk to use as a magic bullet so if he doesnt throw them away on the land bridge right away you should be careful not to end your panzer divs alone on clear terrain since you know they will be around nearby somewhere building up cpp

[Joel Billings]

First off, 2 Soviet artillery units can have 5000 men so that can make any division look much bigger. The big rifle divisions with nothing attached are almost 15k. I do see cases where the AI has units over TOE and not due to a downgrade in the OB to a smaller OB. I assume this is from merging units. By merging units you can end up with more than 100% of TOE if you include in damaged elements. These should eventually return to the pool, but you can see some big (but not necessarily effective) units this way.

[Stamb]

My game vs AI in Road To Leningrad. No merging or any other tricks/abuses. Lvl 4 depot and HQ with lvl 4 supply is all what is needed. I can attach save with all turns if needed




Another issue that was reported by some other player: Axis AI is not holding a line, it just withdraw divisions from his flanks and as a result:


P.S
Post edited, since it contained screenshot that i did not make and that screenshot was here, probably, because of a mistake during forum images migration