German Command Points

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

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DarkHorse2
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German Command Points

Post by DarkHorse2 »

Dear Matrix,

I am not quite sure if you have visited the front recently or are fully aware of the command situation here, but we are soon to be facing a severly overloaded command structure once Army Group Antonescu is removed (Turn 13).

We have only been provided a total of four Army Groups:

Code: Select all

* Army Group North
* Army Group Center
* Army Group South
* Army Group Antonescu

According to your directives, each is allowed a rather limited budget of 108 CP per Army Group. While things are tight from Corps to Army level, we have been able to manage if careful. However, once Army Group Antonescu is withdrawn, taking with him 25% of the Army Group level Command Points, we will no longer have the capacity to fully command our Army Groups on the Eastern Front.

Additionally, to make matters worse, trying to absorb the Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies into the Wehrmact command structure can only be accomplished at double the normal CP cost.

This dire situtation demands your immediate attention.

Respectfully,

Inspector of Command Structure and Organization


Ok guys, what the heck did you do by dismissing Anton on turn 13 now? He used to stick around until at least '42. He is not all that great to begin with, but at least he could manage the 3rd & 4th Romanian Armies, as well as the German 11th Army (if needed), until AGS splits in late '42.

But now, it is impossible to manage for a good year, at least.

I am aware, that for the most part, Army Group Antonescu existed on paper only. In practical terms, the Romanians were fairly integrated within Army Group South's command structure. (yet still require x2 CPs in WiTE2 for some reason)

However, the starting limit of only 108 CP per Army Group is very subjective. (you could have picked 150 CP, or 200 CP, or ... and still be perfectly valid). Army Group South has always had a greater number of organizations to manage (with the exception of Operation Typhoon). To that, add the Slovakians, Romanians, Hungarians, Italians... all at double the CP cost.

The (mostly imaginary) Army Group Antonesce allowed the German player to deal with the (mostly imaginary) Army Group-level command point limits imposed by WiTE2.

In general, I don't have a problem with the concept of CPs... or even the current number of CPs allowed at most levels, up to the point of Army Groups. But once we get to Army Group-level, Germany only having 324 CPs (108x3) from turn 13 thru much of '42 is woefully insufficient.

Germany should at least be afforded the basic minimum of CPs to manage their historical force pool. And then, the leeway to mismanage it and suffer the consequences.

But to put the Wehrmact at an arbitary deficit for the 1st year? Not only is it ahistorical, (as if it was truly the case, additional command hierachies would have been created to address it) but it unfairly punishes/penalizes Germany (when they have done nothing wrong) and without any recourse to address or fix. (other than assign everyone to OKH - or some other ridiculous measure).

If you are going to strip away 25% of Germany's Army Group-level CPs on turn 13, then you should at least bump the Army Group CP allotment to 150 CP to compensate. (150 CPs is probably more appropriate anyways and allows a more realistic representation of Germany's current command limits. for example - AGC & Operation Typhoon)

Sincerely,

- DH2
Last edited by DarkHorse2 on Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Wiedrock
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Wiedrock »

DarkHorse2 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:48 pm but it unfairly punishes/penalizes Germany (when they have done nothing wrong)
made my day :lol:
dankhippos
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Re: German Command Points

Post by dankhippos »

Completely agree. War in the East 2 can never be an exact simulation of eastern front warfare because players have freedom to do as they please. So I don't understand why players can't choose to have their armies properly commanded on the axis side. Army's should be able to be transferred from Western Europe or created, and same with Army Groups. Regimenting is already bad but the Command capacity means you can never regiment anyways.
Veterin
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Veterin »

I tend to agree with this post too. I've got 1 game that's only early April 42 but AGN/AGC/AGS are all completely full and I've got another ~15 or so divisions (over 30 CP) that are either going to Corps HQ only (then OKH) or straight to OKH despite still needing to bring more units from the TB on map. It's worth noting I only have Germans in my command structure too. Axis allies are going into the Romanian Army HQ then to OKH or directly from non-German Corps to OKH.

I know another Army Group is available in ~10 or so turns but it doesn't stay for long which leads back to the same problem late 42.
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Wiedrock
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Wiedrock »

After disbanding AGA the 3rd and 4th Rumanian Armies were subordinated to the 11th Army. All this historical weirdness putting AGs into AGs and putting Armies into Armies is hard to replicate. Maybe making the 11th Army a Army Group earlier (with reduced CP?!) can solve this issue, or removing the "foreign"-penalty for AGS (if that's possible). But in general the Command structure wasn't always that straight forward and therefore isn't some nice spicy assignment-salad something historytasteful? :lol:
Veterin
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Veterin »

Wiedrock wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:30 am After disbanding AGA the 3rd and 4th Rumanian Armies were subordinated to the 11th Army. All this historical weirdness putting AGs into AGs and putting Armies into Armies is hard to replicate. Maybe making the 11th Army a Army Group earlier (with reduced CP?!) can solve this issue, or removing the "foreign"-penalty for AGS (if that's possible). But in general the Command structure wasn't always that straight forward and therefore isn't some nice spicy assignment-salad something historytasteful? :lol:
The foreign penalty is largely irrelevant. The ~30cp shortage I’ve got in early 42 is without a single axis ally in the command structure for example
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ToxicThug11
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Re: German Command Points

Post by ToxicThug11 »

I enjoy having a perfect command structure as the Soviets from turn 1 whilst desperately needing army HQs and front HQs for the entire game as the Germans, I do not think it reflects reality but as a Soviet player it makes me happy

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ToxicThug11
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Re: German Command Points

Post by ToxicThug11 »

Veterin wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:21 am I tend to agree with this post too. I've got 1 game that's only early April 42 but AGN/AGC/AGS are all completely full
I wonder which game this is


:mrgreen:

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Joel Billings
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Joel Billings »

How well did those Romanian Armies do? Maybe we've got it right.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
Nikel
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Nikel »

Should not be the Soviet side the penalised in command? At least in the first period of the war.

I mean, from Glantz's When titans clashed book:

"The German Army, Luftwaffe, and Waffen (Combat) SS, with their recent combat experience and flexible, decentralized command structure, had enormous advantages over their Soviet counterparts in 1941."

And

"The purges had produced a severe shortage of trained commanders and staff officers able to implement official concepts. The army had a sprinkling of qualified leaders from the Japanese and Finnish campaigns,
but it lacked both the experience and the self-confidence of the Wehrmacht officer corps. In contrast to the German belief in subordinate initiative, Red Army leaders had learned that any show of
independent judgement was hazardous to their personal health. Some, such as Zhukov, were willing to accept these risks and be justified by their results, but many other officers preferred to apply textbook
solutions without regard to the local situation or the terrain."

And

"Organization and command differentiate armies from mobs, but for the Red Army, both organization and command dissolved rapidly."
AlbertN
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Re: German Command Points

Post by AlbertN »

I agree with the OP - Army Groups should have larger allocation, and if it was for German armies are also stingy in CP, especially if one ought to regiment down units. (Which vs AI functions!)
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EwaldvonKleist
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Re: German Command Points

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

Germany also like to form ad-hoc battlegroups. Ingame this coukd be modeled with extra Corps CPs so it is easier to shuffle troops around as needed.
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Joel Billings
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Joel Billings »

Soviets already have problems with very low commanders in 1941, and a corps structure that goes away (with penalties through November 1941 for units attached directly to armies). They are effectively already taking a command penalty.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
Nikel
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Nikel »

OK, thanks.

And the thread is about penalising the Germans less, not the Soviets more :)
ShaggyHiK
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Re: German Command Points

Post by ShaggyHiK »

It is obvious that your thread is about a cross tank in a vacuum, which does not take into account the interaction of the parties. If you want to play beautifully against a bot, then you don't care what team points you have.
MarkShot
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Re: German Command Points

Post by MarkShot »

As these are coefficients and not algorithms should not such values be easily modable?

It is not simply a question where historical accuracy lies. For players being able to buff/debuff with versatility improves the ability to the tweak the game to their liking. I see no harm in this. 2by3 should build a well modeled engine, but allow the players to tweak parameters. More players will be happy, and it will add to the shelf life.

Only in the MP community does a variance of values become problematic.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
jasonbroomer
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Re: German Command Points

Post by jasonbroomer »

Veterin wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:05 am
Wiedrock wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:30 am After disbanding AGA the 3rd and 4th Rumanian Armies were subordinated to the 11th Army. All this historical weirdness putting AGs into AGs and putting Armies into Armies is hard to replicate. Maybe making the 11th Army a Army Group earlier (with reduced CP?!) can solve this issue, or removing the "foreign"-penalty for AGS (if that's possible). But in general the Command structure wasn't always that straight forward and therefore isn't some nice spicy assignment-salad something historytasteful? :lol:
The foreign penalty is largely irrelevant. The ~30cp shortage I’ve got in early 42 is without a single axis ally in the command structure for example
his could be because you are playing with open TBs. Command point limitations is perhaps a good way to mitigate the benefit that open TB brings.

Personally I like being resource deficient as it forces you to make some interesting decisions. Having no resource limitations would frankly be boring! Thank god I'm not an American :lol:
Sammy5IsAlive
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Sammy5IsAlive »

If you are having problems with the AG command limit you can always assign an army in a low action sector (e.g. round the Valdai) to OKH directly. IIRC the combat penalties only apply for divisions attached directly. So the only penalty is missing a single command check (the way the checks work is the check you miss out on is the final one that would have happened at OKH level).
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Wiedrock
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Re: German Command Points

Post by Wiedrock »

I've created a beautyful Command Battle Modifiers overview so you guys know (apart from missing rolls) what you are complaining about.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=408962
Last edited by Wiedrock on Fri Feb 07, 2025 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
DarkHorse2
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Re: German Command Points

Post by DarkHorse2 »

Joel Billings wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:04 pm How well did those Romanian Armies do? Maybe we've got it right.
Seriously? You are going to play the Romanian-card?

The Romanians (or even the Axis Allies) have it rough enough without subsequently being kicked in the teeth. I am very aware of how poorly the Axis Allies performed on occasion. But had they performed as poorly as depicted in WiTE2, such that they are a needless drain on the logistics network with very little to show for it, Germany would have sent them home and banned them from the Eastern Front.

I hardly believe the fairly recent change to withdraw AG Anton was the result of some kind of well thought-out, deliberate, design process - done two (or more) years after WiTE2's initial release?

Fundamentally, solely from a game design perspective, players in general do not enjoy having to manage a very finite resource, and then having insufficient in-game tools to do so. (or, in this case, having those tools stripped away) It makes for a very frustrating game experience.

In my graduate studies, we actually covered the "Gamer Motivational Model". see - https://medium.com/ironsource-levelup/a ... 156ff0151a

I am more inclined to believe this change was done in a vacuum, without realizing the full implications.
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