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Merchant Shipping
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:09 am
by DarkHorse2
In every account, except for WiTE2, Germany has 2-4 times the merchant shipping as the Soviet Union.
However, in WiTE2, SU has
10+ times that of Germany.
In WiTE2, the German Baltic merchant fleet barely rates above that of the Sea of Azov's fleet.
Some of the tables below, the Soviet merchant fleet does not even rate a listing...
I sincerely question the amount of fact checking that went into WiTE2's naval shipping implementation.
- WW2_MaritimeNations.jpg (367.53 KiB) Viewed 500 times
Re: Merchant Shipping
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:49 am
by DarkHorse2
Regarding the table that briefly mentions some of the Soviet Union's naval acquisitions, the following is an interesting read.
By 7 October 1943, however, the Russians had indicated an interest in taking over about one-third of the Italian Fleet, a desire they communicated to Eden when he visited Moscow later that month. As Eden warned the War Cabinet on 27 October, the Soviet commissar for foreign affairs, V.I. Molotov, had requested “1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 8 Destroyers, 4 Submarines and 40,000 tons of shipping,” which Eden thought reasonable and worth granting quickly, not least because “an early favourable decision would be very helpful at the Moscow Conference.” Eden named a third of the Italian navy on the basis that Italy had surrendered to all three Allied powers.
The Italian Navy in “The Churchill Documents,” Volume 19
https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/ ... volume-19/
Re: Merchant Shipping
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:01 am
by Denniss
Germany likely lost a lot of ships due to internment in neutral harbours or other captures in foreign now allied harbours by war's start. Many ships were required in the west (Atlantic, indian, Pacific ocean). a certain part is cut-off for denmark/Norway despite being on the map as thats required for TB supply/resource runs.
On the other hand the soviets had a not-so-small Pacific fleet.
There are certain issues with ships like continuous reinforcement of ships for soviet baltics despite being limited to Leningrad (dont know if they still get ship with leningrad captured), missing caps for small areas like Ladoga
Re: Merchant Shipping
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:24 pm
by DarkHorse2
That is true that Germany did have some merchant shipping interned.
But they also acquired a good number from Norway, Low Countries and France when those countries were occupied in 1940.
So, for Germany to go from 3-to-1 (probably low est) to 1-to-10 vs the Soviet Union in 2 years is pure fantasy.
I have the 1941 numbers somewhere if I can remember where.....
Re: Merchant Shipping
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:18 pm
by DarkHorse2
German Merchant shipping numbers and tabulated inventory, with build and losses per year. First number is last years balance. Second number is the new builds . The third number is the loses and figure after = is the end of year balance, which then becomes the first number of the next row down.
V Large >7000ton Merchants
1939 : 167 + 8 -10 = 165
1940 : 165 + 5 -24 = 146
1941: 146 + 1 -33 = 114
1942 : 114 + 0 -15= 99
1943 : 99 + 1 -16 = 84
1944 : 84 + 2 -19 = 67
1945 : 67 + 2 -34 = 35
Large 5000-7000 ton Merchants
1939 : 148 + 8 -10 = 146
1940 : 146 + 1 -41 = 106
1941: 106+ 2 -19 = 89
1942 : 89 + 2 -16= 75
1943 : 75 + 1 -11 = 65
1944 : 65 + 9 -33 = 41
1945 : 41 + 1 -28 = 14
Medium 3000-5000 ton Merchants
1939 : 184 + 11 -10 = 185
1940 : 185 + 0 -24 = 161
1941: 161 + 2 -33 = 130
1942 : 130 + 2 -15= 117
1943 : 117 + 3 -16 = 104
1944 : 104 + 0 -19 = 85
1945 : 85+ 0 -34 = 51
Small 1000-3000 ton Merchants
1939 : 476 + 13 -9 = 480
1940 : 480 + 4 -29 = 455
1941: 455 + 2 - 43 = 414
1942 : 414 + 4 -33= 385
1943 : 385 + 15 -28 = 372
1944 : 372+ 10 -69 = 313
1945 : 313 + 2 -102 = 213
Steamers 100-1000 tons
1939 : 424 + 16 -7 = 433
1940 : 433 + 4 -20 = 417
1941: 417 + 2 - 19 = 400
1942 : 400 + 4 -19= 385
1943 : 385 + 4 -20 = 369
1944 : 369+ 6 -64 = 311
1945 : 311 + 2 -92 = 221
A
conservative 1941 GRT estimate from these tables would look like:
114 * 7500t = 855,000t
89 * 6000t = 534,000t
130 * 4000t = 520,000t
414 * 2000t = 828,000t
400 * 500t = 200,000t (sincerely doubt these were ocean going vessels... going to disregard for now....)
----------------------------
End of 1941: 2,737,000t - (a value that is at least
2-to-1 compared against the Soviet Merchant fleet)
Re: Merchant Shipping
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:41 pm
by AlbertN
For all I know German shipping interned was minimal, as Germans warned their captains.
It was Italy, in its 'sudden' war entry in 1940 that had an amount of its merchant marine interned.
I believe there is also the problem of a perpetuum of sinking / losing German vessels in the Baltic, for reasons unknown in general. Things that were not happening at that rate til the very late stages of war.
Re: Merchant Shipping
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:44 pm
by DarkHorse2
AlbertN wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:41 pm
For all I know German shipping interned was minimal, as Germans warned their captains.
It was Italy, in its 'sudden' war entry in 1940 that had an amount of its merchant marine interned.
I believe there is also the problem of a perpetuum of sinking / losing German vessels in the Baltic, for reasons unknown in general. Things that were not happening at that rate til the very late stages of war.
Yes, the attrition rates are insane... another issue.
Couple that with 1/3 of the Soviet Naval forces are in the Far East (not Europe) AND the insane Soviet Naval production numbers... I suspect there must have been a large quantity of Russian Vodka involved during the implementation.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000234149.pdf
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