Cannot make sense of 'Rng Circles'

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DeletedUser44
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 4:14 pm

Cannot make sense of 'Rng Circles'

Post by DeletedUser44 »

I currently use and routinely view Rng Circles. Also review the tool tips when you select an AOG (for example, JG54), then hover over each of the individual AC units.

In this case (JG54, all Bf 109F-2s):
* the Rng Circles (when checked) has a radius of 6 hexes. (wow, that seems really short)
* the tooltip for one of the Bf 109F-2s shows - 'Radius(hex) 11/15'
* Aircraft data shows - 'Radius(miles) 154' (ok if this gets divided by 10 to convert to hexes, it is easy to see where the '15' came from)

But what about the Rng Circle? Which is correct? 6 hexes or 11 hexes or 15 hexes? (as I understand it, the '15' above would be 'combat range' or non-escort range)

The manual state:
Air group range circles are shown on the map for air
groups. This is the maximum combat range of the aircraft
and is shown in purple. Combat range is the distance that
aircraft can fly on non-escort missions based on their load
out (interception can go out this far too, although there’s a
low chance of interception at longer ranges).

---

Currently JG54 is assigned as a Ground Support escort. JG54 has no problem flying escort 11 hexes away. (so I am guessing '11' hexes is the correct value)

---

But the 'Rng Circles' are practically meaningless and appears to be 1/2 what they are intended.

---

Also, have included a screen shot from the manual (figure 18-13). In this figure, it appears to display a correct 'Rng Circle' for the 109F-2s. (11 hexes)

But what I get now, in the latest beta patch, is nothing this big. I am not sure when this changed....

EDIT: On cross-checking other AC, I believe the manual's illustration is wrong as well. If this is non-escort range, then the 'Rng Circle' should have used the larger '15' from the '11/15' values, above.

So, basically, the 'Rng Circle' illustration in the manual is wrong and the subsequent modifications to the 'Rng Circles' (in the game) were even more wrong?




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metaphore
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RE: Cannot make sense of 'Rng Circles'

Post by metaphore »

I would say that 12 hexes is the correct value for Bf 109F2 without fuel tanks and 19 hexes with 300L fuel tanks

So I don't know either why it's showing Radius(Hex) 11/15 without loadout.
I do agree that the "range" display/data feature is a very confusing matter. Rings seems to get it right though (most of the time).

The halved range of 6 hexes is probably due to their assignement to Ground Support AD?
Delete this AD and it would probably go back to full range. (But don't ask me why :)


At the begining of the 1941 campaign, II./JG 54 from Ebenrode can reach Gruzdziai, 12 hexes away, without loadout and Tukums (near Riga), 19 hexes away with 300L fuel tanks:

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DeletedUser44
Posts: 417
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RE: Cannot make sense of 'Rng Circles'

Post by DeletedUser44 »

ORIGINAL: metaphore

I would say that 12 hexes is the correct value for Bf 109F2 without fuel tanks and 19 hexes with 300L fuel tanks

So I don't know either why it's showing Radius(Hex) 11/15 without loadout.
I do agree that the "range" display/data feature is a very confusing matter. Rings seems to get it right though (most of the time).

The halved range of 6 hexes is probably due to their assignement to Ground Support AD?
Delete this AD and it would probably go back to full range. (But don't ask me why :)


At the begining of the 1941 campaign, II./JG 54 from Ebenrode can reach Gruzdziai, 12 hexes away, without loadout and Tukums (near Riga), 19 hexes away with 300L fuel tanks:

Image

Will try deleting the AD at beginning of next turn and see if it makes a difference.

If I am interpreting the manual correctly -and- the Bf 109F-2 tooltip is correct with Radius(hex): 11/15, the Rng Circles should be using 15.

In my case, (with the latest patch) the Rng Circle of 6 hexes is clearly wrong as I am intercepting out to 11 hexes, easily.

All the Rng Circles for all the AC appear to be 1/2 of the values of their listed Radius values.

For example, the JU 88 -

Range: 920 miles (from Commander's Report)
Radius(miles) : 401 (from aircraft details tab) (internally derived from 920 mile Range)
Radius(hex) : 30 / 40 (from tool-tip) (this makes sense)

401 / 10 = 40 (combat range)
40 * 3/4 = 30 (escort range... which really does not apply to Bombers, does it? They do not fly escort, so it can be ignored)

However, the Rng Circles (in the patch) for the JU 88 only have Rng Circles with a radius of 20 hexes ??? Why would this need to be halved again after the Radius(miles)(401 miles) was clearly at least halved from the original 920 mile Range?

In essence, the Rng Circles(20 hexes) are being rendered at less than 1/4 of the AC's full range(92 hexes).

That doesn't sound right....


Thank you for the suggestion.
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Joel Billings
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RE: Cannot make sense of 'Rng Circles'

Post by Joel Billings »

I can't make sense of them either. I'm moving this to the tech support area. If someone can explain the circles to us, please do, otherwise I'll get it added to our list to look into. Thanks.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
metaphore
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:34 am

RE: Cannot make sense of 'Rng Circles'

Post by metaphore »

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

If I am interpreting the manual correctly -and- the Bf 109F-2 tooltip is correct with Radius(hex): 11/15, the Rng Circles should be using 15.

In my case, (with the latest patch) the Rng Circle of 6 hexes is clearly wrong as I am intercepting out to 11 hexes, easily.

All the Rng Circles for all the AC appear to be 1/2 of the values of their listed Radius values.

For example, the JU 88 -

Range: 920 miles (from Commander's Report)
Radius(miles) : 401 (from aircraft details tab) (internally derived from 920 mile Range)
Radius(hex) : 30 / 40 (from tool-tip) (this makes sense)

401 / 10 = 40 (combat range)
40 * 3/4 = 30 (escort range... which really does not apply to Bombers, does it? They do not fly escort, so it can be ignored)

However, the Rng Circles (in the patch) for the JU 88 only have Rng Circles with a radius of 20 hexes ??? Why would this need to be halved again after the Radius(miles)(401 miles) was clearly at least halved from the original 920 mile Range?

In essence, the Rng Circles(20 hexes) are being rendered at less than 1/4 of the AC's full range(92 hexes).

That doesn't sound right....


Thank you for the suggestion.
Please, don't delete your Ground Support AD if it's a human vs human game or you'll lose your ability to intercept with your fighters!
You rather should use a side test game beside the one you are playing.

Concerning the range (radius) I'm just like you and trying to figure out how this stuff is supposed to work - which is not always the same as how it's actually working.

I was trying to make a complete map with all the Soviet airfields in bomber range of the closest Axis airfields at the start of the campaign. Consequently, I also need to draw such rings in my new map...
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: Cannot make sense of 'Rng Circles'

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: metaphore
ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

If I am interpreting the manual correctly -and- the Bf 109F-2 tooltip is correct with Radius(hex): 11/15, the Rng Circles should be using 15.

In my case, (with the latest patch) the Rng Circle of 6 hexes is clearly wrong as I am intercepting out to 11 hexes, easily.

All the Rng Circles for all the AC appear to be 1/2 of the values of their listed Radius values.

For example, the JU 88 -

Range: 920 miles (from Commander's Report)
Radius(miles) : 401 (from aircraft details tab) (internally derived from 920 mile Range)
Radius(hex) : 30 / 40 (from tool-tip) (this makes sense)

401 / 10 = 40 (combat range)
40 * 3/4 = 30 (escort range... which really does not apply to Bombers, does it? They do not fly escort, so it can be ignored)

However, the Rng Circles (in the patch) for the JU 88 only have Rng Circles with a radius of 20 hexes ??? Why would this need to be halved again after the Radius(miles)(401 miles) was clearly at least halved from the original 920 mile Range?

In essence, the Rng Circles(20 hexes) are being rendered at less than 1/4 of the AC's full range(92 hexes).

That doesn't sound right....


Thank you for the suggestion.
Please, don't delete your Ground Support AD if it's a human vs human game or you'll lose your ability to intercept with your fighters!
You rather should use a side test game beside the one you are playing.

Concerning the range (radius) I'm just like you and trying to figure out how this stuff is supposed to work - which is not always the same as how it's actually working.

I was trying to make a complete map with all the Soviet airfields in bomber range of the closest Axis airfields at the start of the campaign. Consequently, I also need to draw such rings in my new map...

Good luck running Defensive GS. If you do you open up the very gates of Hell for your planes.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Joel Billings
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RE: Cannot make sense of 'Rng Circles'

Post by Joel Billings »

Pavel has reported working on these and they do appear to be working (within a hex) in the update we just released to testers.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
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Hardradi
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RE: Cannot make sense of 'Rng Circles'

Post by Hardradi »

One of the range circles views (on the left) does provide all of the information while the other view (one the right) does not provide the combat range and colours the escort range purple.

There is also a problem with the first view as it does not show the I-16 or the I-15 range (which are the same).

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