Bf 109-F4s

[DeletedUser44]

The OOB and F4 production data really needs to be looked at.

In WiTE2, the Bf 109F-4 has a start date of: 8-1941

Then add the full month WiTE2 makes you wait before you can convert AC units to use the new aircraft and we are looking at a full month where Germany gets no 'Bf 109F-2' production, but cannot make use of the new 'Bf 109F-4' production either... not until 9-1941.

(unlike the Soviets, Germany has only 1 single engine fighter model being produced at this time. When production usage is withheld for a full month on a single model like this, it is deeply felt)

The 'Bf 109F-4' were actually being produced from 5-1941 thru 5-1942. (even before Barbarossa) The withholding of the 'Bf 109F-4' for the full month of 8-1941 is rather arbitrary in this instance.

Additionally, there is OOB data showing the 'Bf 109F-4' fully deployed and in use by the Luftwaffe on the eastern front as early as 6-1941.

(see https://ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se28641.htm)

On 28.06.41, III./JG52 was fully using Bf 109F-4s, and III./JG77, Stab/JG1, I./JG1 was in the process of converting over.

At the least, III./JG52 needs to be changed to 'Bf 109F-4s', as well as the 'Bf 109F-4' production start date corrected.

[GibsonPete]

+1

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Nice. +1 here too

[Denniss]

both sides are treated the same with new aircraft delays so I don't see the need to favor the germans. Plus there's no real good option to have them produce both versions at the same time (lots of model overlaps in german production due to licensees often trail behind a model change).
You may want to contact the scenario designer to change those units to F-4s

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

both sides are treated the same with new aircraft delays so I don't see the need to favor the germans. Plus there's no real good option to have them produce both versions at the same time (lots of model overlaps in german production due to licensees often trail behind a model change).
You may want to contact the scenario designer to change those units to F-4s

It's not about making any "favor to the Germans".

What about having an accurate OOB from the start of the campaign game and get the correct production date for those aircraft?
Now, how could we have a full unit equiped with F4 while such model would not have been put in production at an earlier date?
Without both change, it simply doesn't make any sense.

[Denniss]

At best I see 1 F-4 produced in 5/41 (Erla) with a larger run starting in June.
Mtt Regensburg seems to have made the transition in 6/41 with 1 produced and very limited production following it.
unclear when the others transitioned (Arado, WNF, Ago)

EDIT:
MttR never produced F-4 so the transition was rather from F-1 to F2 with production ending in September 41
Ago/Arado never produced F-4 either so ~250 F-2 7/41-11/41

[DarenMoss]

Sauron,
I make the same point here (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5090303). This is a serious problem for the German player, particularly if he is going for the 'destroy the Sovs in the Air' strategy which really stretches the Luftwaffe. What is your view on the 'Erg' units and potential to have them as fixed on-map units?

[panzer51]

if we are to include training units we should also include all Soviet reserve divisions

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: panzer51

if we are to include training units we should also include all Soviet reserve divisions

There is really no need to include training units.

But German OOB should be accurate with F4 already deployed at the end of June. It was deployed in one full Gruppe and another one was in process of changing dotation (50% F4). Also, production pool should reflect that concerning F4 deliveries in one way or another.

[DarenMoss]

The Erganzungs weren’t trig units but operational replacement units under the command of the Luftflotte. As per my separate post:

Erganzungs, these operational replacement Sqns may be already reflected in the games replacement system but each Luftflotte had 1-2 Erganzungs to introduce replacement fighter pilots (and aircraft) to the Eastern front and filter them to the frontline JG. For instance Luftflotte 1 had 2 Ergenzung units, Erg/JG52 and Erg/JG54 based at Neuhasen. Normally these weren't used for frontline combat but an exception was made during the first 1-2 weeks of Barbarossa when they were assigned air superiority missions to allow the regular JG to conduct ground attack, especially airfield attack missions. They had a nominal 30 ac strength but this reduced quickly to ~24 ac as losses outstripped supply. They were also assigned defensive missions, for instance the above Erg/JG52 and Erg/JG54 were assigned air-defence of Koenigsberg and Memel once the frontline moved forward. They were subsequently redeployed to Tallinn and were responsible for defending the limited oil production at Sonda and Narva as well as keeping Luftflotte I JG units supplied with a steady stream of pilots. In game terms this could be modelled as making them on-map units for the 1st couple of units before moving to the Russian garrison or making them static units that can't redeploy.

Not sure how this links to your comment on Reserve divisions. I’m just looking to explore the issue of how the air replacement system works. The Erg units were separate from the flying trg units and actually had a ltd combat role.

[DeletedUser44]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

both sides are treated the same with new aircraft delays so I don't see the need to favor the germans. Plus there's no real good option to have them produce both versions at the same time (lots of model overlaps in german production due to licensees often trail behind a model change).
You may want to contact the scenario designer to change those units to F-4s

I do understand that delays are applied equally. However, the arbitrary 1 month transition for 8-1941, in this case, is not warranted as those F4s are already in full production before Barbarossa began.

Also aware that WiTE2 does not handle production model overlap well at all. (I understand how WiTE2's factory model works). But delaying the F4s solely because Germany may still be producing F2s does not seem appropriate either.

Addressing an arbitrary 1-month break in single engine fighter production is not favoring Germany, but addressing an issue with your production model that is disparately penalizing Germany.

[Denniss]

There were some F-4 produced but it was not the main production model by this time.
I have no problem with those 2 air units starting with F-4s

[Joch1955]

Hi, not sure what is being argued. 75%+ of 109Fs were still F2s at the end of sept. 41 and as late as the end of december 41, roughly 50% of Fs were still F2s, so any conversion should be gradual.