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Since the Italian Alpini have become a meme with their 600 Support Squads and ~82% Manpower in Support Squads, AlbertN was interested taking a deeper look into this. Me as a German obviously wanted to help my Italian allie, so we dug.
Best Source we could find was this:
Alpini Divisions '41:

• Rifle Squad size (14men formed one squad)
• Scout/Recon Section is missing

Changes needed:

• Creation of a new Rifle Squad type "alpini" of 14men
  >>>162Squads*4Men=648Men
• Creation of a new Recon Squad (may be Ski) 16men
  >>> 16Men*3Co*3Bat*2Reg=288Men -> 288/16=18Squads

Note that generally I guess everyone back then had a gun, but if the Devs feel uncomfortable to give the guy with the Mule a gun you could just simply add him to the Squad (which he directly belonged to) without adding a gun, that's still way better and more realistic than making him a Support element.

---

Alpini Divisions '42:

• Seems like overall Squad Structure remained the same. (see Division '41).
• Before there were only Engineers and Signal "mixed" in a Divisional assignment. Those are present in both TOEs 41+42 in game and stayed like this in all the TOEs. But each Battalion received a additional Engineering Platoon and Signal Platoon.
• The Three Alpini sent to Russia may have had only 8 Guns caliber 105 each.

Changes needed:

• - see all of '41
  >>>648Men+288Men=936Men
• - addition of more Engineering Squads
  >>>2Reg*3Bat*69Men = 414Men -> 414/11=37.64Squads
• Removing 4 Guns (105)
  >>>(-1)*4Guns*8Men=-32Men

Note that there may be a difference between the initially intended assignment of 12 Guns versus what was available (only 24), I don't know for sure how it all ended up, would be nice to know if someone has further insights.

---

When applying those changes this would change:
Alpini Divisions '41:
from: 600SupportSquads (600*20/14355=83.6% of Manpower)
to: 600-(648+288)/20=553.2SupportSquads ->553.2*20/14355=77.1% of Manpower

Alpini Divisions '42:
from: 600SupportSquads (600*20/14703=81.6% of Manpower)
to: 600-(648+288+414-32)/20=534.1SupportSquads -> 534.1*20/14703=72.7% of Manpower

Would be nice to have those changes applied, if not 100% at least at a scale which other (better(?)) sources make possible which I don't have access to.

In the mod I am making I've set the Scout Squads as 8 men (no LMG, 1 carabine and 7 rifles and the hand grenade) and made them Ski Squad as type of element. So 36 squads instead of 18.
The Rifle Squads are 13 men, and added 3 rifles to it.
Added 7 Assault Engineer Squads.

Lowered relative fuel consumption since they have packmules instead of trucks.

Now - as documented in that file there are possibly more weapons and soldiers, but they're tied to the Divisional HQ or logistical assets - that have a 1-2 HMG or the like for local defense, etc.
I take that's bundled in Support in general - and surely it is personnel well behind the combat lines when things go well.
But when the enemy 'breaches' your line and start to rampage ... things change rapidly!

AlbertN wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:52 am Added 7 Assault Engineer Squads.

That's missing +30 Squads (or however you want to count the 69 men in the Platoon).

I blame me doing things at silly o'clock in the night...

I made of that the total of the division, I ought to recompute.

On the other hand I am not changing the guns - because I feel it can be very fitting that 'on the paper' you should have 12. You may simply not get 12 because they're not there / produced too slowly.

Making some of the Engineers into "Labor Squad" like Soviet Sappers may also be an idea. One needs to find the exact composition/equipment of such a Platoon inside an Alpini Battalion.

1 new TOE.
2 existing TOEs.
2 new Alpini Squads. (are Ground Element Type 118 Mountain Squad [NEW])
2 new Alpini Scout Squads.

The added Labor Squads are a mix of the newly added Pioneer Platoons and Pioneers of the Artillery Division - so a compromise to not make too many new "Assault" Engineer Squads.

If you find errors or have forther infos, let me know.

Wiedrock wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:10 pm Since the Italian Alpini have become a meme with their 600 Support Squads and ~82% Manpower in Support Squads, AlbertN was interested taking a deeper look into this. Me as a German obviously wanted to help my Italian allie, so we dug.
Best Source we could find was this:
Italy-Infantry.pdf


Alpini Divisions '41:

• Rifle Squad size (14men formed one squad)
• Scout/Recon Section is missing

Changes needed:

• Creation of a new Rifle Squad type "alpini" of 14men
  >>>162Squads*4Men=648Men
• Creation of a new Recon Squad (may be Ski) 16men
  >>> 16Men*3Co*3Bat*2Reg=288Men -> 288/16=18Squads

Note that generally I guess everyone back then had a gun, but if the Devs feel uncomfortable to give the guy with the Mule a gun you could just simply add him to the Squad (which he directly belonged to) without adding a gun, that's still way better and more realistic than making him a Support element.

---

Alpini Divisions '42:

• Seems like overall Squad Structure remained the same. (see Division '41).
• Before there were only Engineers and Signal "mixed" in a Divisional assignment. Those are present in both TOEs 41+42 in game and stayed like this in all the TOEs. But each Battalion received a additional Engineering Platoon and Signal Platoon.
• The Three Alpini sent to Russia may have had only 8 Guns caliber 105 each.

Changes needed:

• - see all of '41
  >>>648Men+288Men=936Men
• - addition of more Engineering Squads
  >>>2Reg*3Bat*69Men = 414Men -> 414/11=37.64Squads
• Removing 4 Guns (105)
  >>>(-1)*4Guns*8Men=-32Men

Note that there may be a difference between the initially intended assignment of 12 Guns versus what was available (only 24), I don't know for sure how it all ended up, would be nice to know if someone has further insights.

---

When applying those changes this would change:
Alpini Divisions '41:
from: 600SupportSquads (600*20/14355=83.6% of Manpower)
to: 600-(648+288)/20=553.2SupportSquads ->553.2*20/14355=77.1% of Manpower

Alpini Divisions '42:
from: 600SupportSquads (600*20/14703=81.6% of Manpower)
to: 600-(648+288+414-32)/20=534.1SupportSquads -> 534.1*20/14703=72.7% of Manpower

Would be nice to have those changes applied, if not 100% at least at a scale which other (better(?)) sources make possible which I don't have access to.

Alpini1.png

At least in this very detailed German 1940 handbook on the Italian army, each company also had an Engineer section.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4

The other sections of the handbook

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p5154106

Checking some man counts, there are quite a few differences. Where does your table come from?

Just noticed the above is from 1937.

MechFO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 2:50 am Where does your table come from?

See the initial post, there is a pdf attached after the first paragraph.

MechFO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 2:50 am each company also had an Engineer section.

I see, you can compare it with page 81 of the pdf.

MechFO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 2:50 am At least in this very detailed German 1940 handbook on the Italian army,
[...]
Just noticed the above is from 1937.

I am at Tablet right now and looking throuh GDiR is a pain. If I get it right, the Handbook (all 3 parts which you have found) is all peacetime 1937?

Wiedrock wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 3:34 am I am at Tablet right now and looking throuh GDiR is a pain. If I get it right, the Handbook (all 3 parts which you have found) is all peacetime 1937?

Yes.

Excellent resource, thank you for posting it.

I've done various cross checks for 1938 but nothing agrees. I assumed the Germans would have accurate information on the Italians but maybe not.

At best any OB change should be made using existing equipment, especially squad types.

Updated this Post with added Squad pictures and changed manpower of the initial TOE (OB:1755) to 14777 [571 Support now] (see source in first post page 83 which gives 14786men for 1940 TOE).