Matrix Games Forums

TLDR:
It seems there are several issues with what's currently in game.

• The game uses one TOE for 2 different types of TOE (one needs to be for 101.-104. and one for 105.-110.).
• Manpower of the currenlty used TOEs is way too high with its 3594Men (should be 1902Men for 101-104 and 2089Men for 105-110).

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1. 11.07.1944: Order to create 1.-10. PzBrig. 1902Men.
   Initially intended TOE:

   

   PzBrig_TOE01_RH_2_1109_0132.jpg (208.85 KiB) Viewed 406 times

2. 18.07.1944: first collection of KSTN, TOE, Strength calculations was published. The TOE did not change, just wa visualized slightly different. (This was the TOE used by the 101.-104. PzBrig.)

   

   PzBrig_TOE02_RH_10_18_0017.jpg (460.01 KiB) Viewed 406 times

3. 21.07.1944: Order to execute orders to create 101.-104. PzBrig.
4. 24.07.1944: Order was given to destroy orders given on 11.07.1944 (TOE remained, mostly added that 106.+110. were "Feldherrnhalle").
5. 26.07.1944: Release of provisionally guidelines manual on the use of PzBrigs.
6. 27.07.1944: Order to create the needed 2cm Quad Flak (SdKfz 7/1) Platoons and 3,7cm Flak Platoons (SdKfz 161/3).
7. 30.07.1944 (Date not 100% clear): Scheduled list for dates of readiness.

   

   PzBrig_schedule_30-07-1944.jpg (28.49 KiB) Viewed 406 times

8. 06.08.1944: Order for a new TOE for PzBrig 105-110 (upgrad of 101-104 was to be later intended). 2089 Men. (This was the TOE used by the 105.-110. PzBrig.)

   

   PzBrig_TOE03_RH_2_1109_0136.jpg (451.95 KiB) Viewed 406 times

9. 29.08.1944: Guidelines for use/fighting of PzBrigs.

That's about it. I did nto find any order to actually upgrade the 101.-104. and Strength reports of them also do not show them being upgraded.

attached are the Listings for Manpower and Weapons/Tanks.

Some example strength reports.
Bigades 102+104using the "old"/initial TOE.
Brigade 107 using the "new" TOE with many "Drilling" AAs.

Regarding the later Variant TOE2 (the one mostly used in game/currently existing) for Brigades 105-110.

• Panzerschreck in the current TOE seems wrong (also not part of TOE1)
• Recons are:
  6xArmored
  4x5Men unarmored + 1x14Men unarmored → (14+20)/6=5,67=6Squads
  (also like this in TOE1)
• 2 Wurfrahmen (Panzerwerfer 251) per Brigade missing (also in TOE1 present)
  There are indications in a later KSTN that this was doubled to 4 but I can't say for sure it ever was applied like this in this context.
• 3xPioneer may be too many, it only have been 6 Squads (...or 12 halve-squads). The Brigades are using 2 Platoons only and add the Flamm-Platoon (see following). Also scrapped was the AT Gun in the Pioneer Platoons it seems. So no reason to add additional 3xPioneer (from how far I can tell). (also in TOE1 like this)
• 6x SdKfz 251/16 Flamethrower missing (also in TOE1 present)
• 2xSdKfz 251/17 is too much (it's part of TOE1 (in large numbers) but not TOE2)
• Tank Battalion AA is Drilling (TOE1 uses SP Quad Flak 2cm)

Regarding the earlier Variant TOE1 (the one missing) for Brigades 101-104.
- no Drilling → many 2cm SP Flak (but not as many as Drilling in the later TOE)
- 3xQuad SP Flak 2cm
- no Panzerschreck
- same Recon
- 2 Wurfrahmen
- 3-less Pioneers
- 6xSdKfz 251/16
- less manpower
- has Heavy MGs
Differences:
TOE1:TOE2
has HMG:has none
has 2cm SP Flak+3Quad Flak:has SP Drilling Flak
~1902Manpower:~2089Manpower
The Flak-Tank should be 3,7cm in both

The actual specialized KSTNs for the initial buildup/set of Panzer Brigades (61pages of KSTN with final calculation) can be accessed in BArch:
RH 2/2511 (some pages double) and/or
RH 2/95 (misses page 27).

any idea regarding org of 111-113 and 150?
were 101-104 considered to reorganize according to 105-110 org?

Used your suggestions for tose changes: EDIT: OB 102 seems to be for 111-113 Pz Brigade so I have to restore it, i'll just insert modified 103 at 104 as 44c and restore 103.

Wiedrock wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 10:15 am attached are the Listings for Manpower and Weapons/Tanks.

RH 2/2511 (some pages double) and/or

This KSTN for Pz Gren Kp c gp frei from 1.7.44 is the earliest I've seen the Sturm Zug/Support Zug Squad organisation.

Denniss wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 9:11 pm
were 101-104 considered to reorganize according to 105-110 org?

For Updating 101-104 it say on 6th of August 1944:
"5) Umgliederung der Pz.Brig. 101-104 is später vorgesehen"
But I did not find any further info on that (yet) if it then was actually ordered (since this remark is just an loose announcement/intention).

Denniss wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 9:11 pm any idea regarding org of 111-113 and 150?

Ragarding the 111, 112, 113 you can find their TOE in BArch RH 10/214 on pages: 133, 137, 139. They are much bigger, the ingame TOE looks about right at first glance. I don't have any further info than these 3 TOE overviews of them so far.

MechFO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 27, 2025 10:51 pm

Wiedrock wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 10:15 am attached are the Listings for Manpower and Weapons/Tanks.

RH 2/2511 (some pages double) and/or

This KSTN for Pz Gren Kp c gp frei from 1.7.44 is the earliest I've seen the Sturm Zug/Support Zug Squad organisation.

Yes I have those. I so far did ignore the StG Squads in this TOE/context. Not sure if they got any at all.

OB 103 seems to be modelled after 113rd Brigade although I can't find 4x of the 12x 20mm Flak, the 251/17. Panzerschrecks usage seems to be implied by the 111 Org whis is said to include a Panzer Zerstörer Zug.
Pz Rgt HQ seems to have had a motorcycle recon company, The Bde Recon company seems to be a mix of mot and mech recon company. Pioneer squads are labeled as PzG Pio so should be Pz Pios?

MechFO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 27, 2025 10:51 pm

Wiedrock wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 10:15 am attached are the Listings for Manpower and Weapons/Tanks.

RH 2/2511

This KSTN for Pz Gren Kp c gp frei from 1.7.44 is the earliest I've seen the Sturm Zug/Support Zug Squad organisation.

Yes I have those. I so far did ignore the StG Squads in this TOE/context. Not sure if they got any at all.
[/quote]

Only specific mention of MiPi44 is below for 104 on 01.11.44, all the others are generic Gewehr/MP summaries.



First thought the "bord" designation below could help but not really. Instead a new can of worms is opened. What is the Pz Pionier Kp doing with the same number of non "bord" le MG as the Pz Gren Bat....Not a typo either a month later it still 2/3 of that number.

Denniss wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 8:17 pm Pioneer squads are labeled as PzG Pio so should be Pz Pios?

They are not armored just because of the name, see KSTN 1118. It's similar to the "Infanterie Pionier Zug" (and so on), which only means that they are inside a Infantry Battalion/Regiment (in this case inside a "Panzergrenadier unit") and using the appropriate KSTN numbers (not the 700s of the Pioneer KSTNs). Not knowledgable about their affiliation either Infantry or Pioneer leaders... I assume they used pioneer-black for their markings ...but not sure.

Denniss wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 8:17 pm OB 103 seems to be modelled after 113rd Brigade although I can't find 4x of the 12x 20mm Flak, the 251/17. Panzerschrecks usage seems to be implied by the 111 Org whis is said to include a Panzer Zerstörer Zug.
Pz Rgt HQ seems to have had a motorcycle recon company, The Bde Recon company seems to be a mix of mot and mech recon company.

I assume in game is a mix of all three TOEs and maybe some other sources used.

MechFO wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 8:58 pm Only specific mention of MiPi44 is below for 104 on 01.11.44

copy

MechFO wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 8:58 pm First thought the "bord" designation below could help but not really. Instead a new can of worms is opened. What is the Pz Pionier Kp doing with the same number of non "bord" le MG as the Pz Gren Bat....Not a typo either a month later it still 2/3 of that number.

In this monthly report:
Pioneers have 15x armored Kfz.
Panzergrenadiers have 68x armored Kfz, of which 42 are "Drilling", so 68-42=26.
So not too far off/too strange.

Wiedrock wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 10:57 pm

MechFO wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 8:58 pm First thought the "bord" designation below could help but not really. Instead a new can of worms is opened. What is the Pz Pionier Kp doing with the same number of non "bord" le MG as the Pz Gren Bat....Not a typo either a month later it still 2/3 of that number.

In this monthly report:
Pioneers have 15x armored Kfz.
Panzergrenadiers have 68x armored Kfz, of which 42 are "Drilling", so 68-42=26.
So not too far off/too strange.

That explains the same number of bord MG, not the same number of dismounted leMG. Most of the Pionier Kp must have been crew for the 36 dismounted le MG.

wondering if this may be of help at all.

zebrazwo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 30, 2025 3:59 pm wondering if this may be of help at all.

Thanks for sharing, what document is this an attachment to?

MechFO wrote: ↑Sat Mar 29, 2025 8:56 pm

Wiedrock wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 10:57 pm

MechFO wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 8:58 pm First thought the "bord" designation below could help but not really. Instead a new can of worms is opened. What is the Pz Pionier Kp doing with the same number of non "bord" le MG as the Pz Gren Bat....Not a typo either a month later it still 2/3 of that number.

In this monthly report:
Pioneers have 15x armored Kfz.
Panzergrenadiers have 68x armored Kfz, of which 42 are "Drilling", so 68-42=26.
So not too far off/too strange.

That explains the same number of bord MG, not the same number of dismounted leMG. Most of the Pionier Kp must have been crew for the 36 dismounted le MG.

Not rly,
the supposed normal Manpower of the Pioneer Company was: 4/0/28/147 with 35 leMG.
the reported current Manpower at 8th December 1944 was: 4/0/28/147 with 36 leMG.

From P189 from the Foreign Military Studies series. (I think... )

I split the document because of the size couldn't compress to 10 mb (lmit for attachments)

Added +3x a newly created "Drilling AAMG" Ground Element which would been part of the later TOE's Panzer Battalion staff. Removed -3x the armored "Drilling SdKfz".

I will ask Jim to add the triple 20mm MG151 alongside the twin 37mm. Plus FK 231(f), K 331(f), sFH 414(f) and the Pak97/38 changed back to field gun use. For the latter I think of 1k "converted" back to field gun in 1944 due to obsolescence as dedicated AT-Gun, better than having them in pool without use.

Denniss wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:08 am I will ask Jim to add the triple 20mm MG151 alongside the twin 37mm. Plus FK 231(f), K 331(f), sFH 414(f) and the Pak97/38 changed back to field gun use. For the latter I think of 1k "converted" back to field gun in 1944 due to obsolescence as dedicated AT-Gun, better than having them in pool without use.

I you need any infos from archives I can look what I can find additionally, just let me know. I don' know what stuff has been either forgotten or reolaced by other stuff, so So I mostly take what's actually "produced" during the game.

Not sure what you exactly mean by dual 37mm, you already recently mentioned that. Do you mean the Dual 3.7cm AA? That one exists already.