Matrix Games Forums

Just curious if a couple things are modeled...

First, I am under the impression that at a certain range, when illuminated by a radar of a certain power, even the low ratio of returned radar waves from a VLO (stealth) aircraft will be enough to create a track (something like burn-through range for jamming ie enough 'signal' is detected for the signal-to-noise ratio to reach 1). Am I mistaken? If so, please disregard, but if not, is this modeled?

Also, I was curious if there is a way to fire Fox 1 (ARH air-to-air missiles eg AIM-120) without using the aircraft's radar when close enough to the target for the missile radar to spot the target immediately after launch (mad-dog)? I'm sure ROE would be restrictive re its use, but it could be a very useful launch mode for VLO aircraft trying to stay undetected as long as possible.

If either or both of these things is unmodelled that's fine - there's already so much detail in this game, you have to draw the line somewhere, but it seemed worth asking. I did actually find a thread from 2013 that suggested mad-dog launches weren't modelled, but given that would have been CMANO days, and given the F-35 Stealth Penguin appears to be everywhere now, it seemed reasonable to ask again.

Edit: I've made a big mistake: I said "Fox 1" where I should have said "Fox 3". Apologies for the error.

As to 1, yes, "stealth" aircraft are not invisible to radar. They can be detected when a lot closer to the radar source.

thewood1 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:22 am As to 1, yes, "stealth" aircraft are not invisible to radar. They can be detected when a lot closer to the radar source.

Fantastic, cheers. Very impressed by the depth of this as a consumer sim, and the PE truly sounds next level.

Horns wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:45 am Just curious if a couple things are modeled...

First, I am under the impression that at a certain range, when illuminated by a radar of a certain power, even the low ratio of returned radar waves from a VLO (stealth) aircraft will be enough to create a track (something like burn-through range for jamming ie enough 'signal' is detected for the signal-to-noise ratio to reach 1). Am I mistaken? If so, please disregard, but if not, is this modeled?

Also, I was curious if there is a way to fire Fox 1 (ARH air-to-air missiles eg AIM-120) without using the aircraft's radar when close enough to the target for the missile radar to spot the target immediately after launch (mad-dog)? I'm sure ROE would be restrictive re its use, but it could be a very useful launch mode for VLO aircraft trying to stay undetected as long as possible.

If either or both of these things is unmodelled that's fine - there's already so much detail in this game, you have to draw the line somewhere, but it seemed worth asking. I did actually find a thread from 2013 that suggested mad-dog launches weren't modelled, but given that would have been CMANO days, and given the F-35 Stealth Penguin appears to be everywhere now, it seemed reasonable to ask again.

Fox 1 launches involve SAHM like Skyflashes and Sparrows; Fox 3 is AHM like AMRAAMs and Meteors. While "Maddog" launches aren't in CMO, aircraft like the F-35 don't really need it. Their avionics can provide targeting data in many circumstances against enemy aircraft without a radar track while they can also use CEC - one F-35 can keep its APG-81 on to provide targeting data to another which is flying dark.

Am not certain if A2A missile can be fired BOL, but if they can it could simulate your second question. It has been a while and I am not near a game to test. But it is simple enough to do. Just launch an AC with A2A missiles and hit Ctrl+F1, and pick a spot to fire at - if it launches than you have your Mad Dog.

B

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... l#p4588446

This thread talks about LOAL in a little more detail.

Gunner98 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:19 pm Am not certain if A2A missile can be fired BOL, but if they can it could simulate your second question. It has been a while and I am not near a game to test. But it is simple enough to do. Just launch an AC with A2A missiles and hit Ctrl+F1, and pick a spot to fire at - if it launches than you have your Mad Dog.

B

Mad Dog ish
SARH AAM are not BOL enabled, I checked with a few of the most obvious like Sparrow and R-27R etc.
DB models illuminate at launch or terminal illumination only.

With terminal illuminating R-27R ER You can fire without radar on if the targets been "seen" by eye or IRST but the firing aircraft turns on its radar as soon as the missile is anywhere near the target ...terminally illuminating .....
As an aside I wonder if the IR and data linked - R-27T/ET should be BOL if it has a LOAL?
K

TempestII wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:17 pm

Horns wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:45 am Just curious if a couple things are modeled...

First, I am under the impression that at a certain range, when illuminated by a radar of a certain power, even the low ratio of returned radar waves from a VLO (stealth) aircraft will be enough to create a track (something like burn-through range for jamming ie enough 'signal' is detected for the signal-to-noise ratio to reach 1). Am I mistaken? If so, please disregard, but if not, is this modeled?

Also, I was curious if there is a way to fire Fox 1 (ARH air-to-air missiles eg AIM-120) without using the aircraft's radar when close enough to the target for the missile radar to spot the target immediately after launch (mad-dog)? I'm sure ROE would be restrictive re its use, but it could be a very useful launch mode for VLO aircraft trying to stay undetected as long as possible.

If either or both of these things is unmodelled that's fine - there's already so much detail in this game, you have to draw the line somewhere, but it seemed worth asking. I did actually find a thread from 2013 that suggested mad-dog launches weren't modelled, but given that would have been CMANO days, and given the F-35 Stealth Penguin appears to be everywhere now, it seemed reasonable to ask again.

Fox 1 launches involve SAHM like Skyflashes and Sparrows; Fox 3 is AHM like AMRAAMs and Meteors. While "Maddog" launches aren't in CMO, aircraft like the F-35 don't really need it. Their avionics can provide targeting data in many circumstances against enemy aircraft without a radar track while they can also use CEC - one F-35 can keep its APG-81 on to provide targeting data to another which is flying dark.

Thanks for this - I didn't realize F-35s could guide each other's missiles. Much obliged

KLAB wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:37 pm

Gunner98 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:19 pm Am not certain if A2A missile can be fired BOL, but if they can it could simulate your second question. It has been a while and I am not near a game to test. But it is simple enough to do. Just launch an AC with A2A missiles and hit Ctrl+F1, and pick a spot to fire at - if it launches than you have your Mad Dog.

B

Mad Dog ish
SARH AAM are not BOL enabled, I checked with a few of the most obvious like Sparrow and R-27R etc.
DB models illuminate at launch or terminal illumination only.

With terminal illuminating R-27R ER You can fire without radar on if the targets been "seen" by eye or IRST but the firing aircraft turns on its radar as soon as the missile is anywhere near the target ...terminally illuminating .....
As an aside I wonder if the IR and data linked - R-27T/ET should be BOL if it has a LOAL?
K

Gunner98 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:19 pm Am not certain if A2A missile can be fired BOL, but if they can it could simulate your second question. It has been a while and I am not near a game to test. But it is simple enough to do. Just launch an AC with A2A missiles and hit Ctrl+F1, and pick a spot to fire at - if it launches than you have your Mad Dog.

B

Thanks to you both. I got into the game and tested, AIM-120D and AIM-54C are listed in the DB as 'LOAL capable', but without radar on I couldn't get either to fire without guidance from the firing platform (mad-dog), either in BOL or manual attack, although it's entirely possible I did something wrong. I didn't test whether AIM-120D would fire with CEC track. Good news is that I was able to fire AIM-120 from an F-35 on an IRST track, so that is valuable to know.

These minor details don't detract from this sim at all. It speaks to the detail of it that we can even have this discussion. I hear there are boats in this too! Thanks to all who contributed.

Edit: Translated this to Human, I made a couple weird mistakes before.