OT: Operation Sealion

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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: glvaca
ORIGINAL: Apollo11

German preparations were irrelevant... the British preparations is what mattered... [;)]

An interesting view on the matter [;)]

Like Robert wrote above - German preparations were surely meticulos - but what actually mattered in this case is how the British would respond!

Also German generals and admirals never believed in Sea Lion - not in 1940 and not after WWII (even Hitler who loved such daring plans never actually liked it)... [;)]
The British knew that for successful invasion the Germans would have to have intact harbor with certain amout of cargo capacity used for off loading.

Quite, but you fail to mention that until the last days of August, the British thought the invasion would be directed against their East Coast (directly from Germany), not in the Channel. As such most of their combat ready divisions were deployed there. Quite interesting preparations, no?

The Sea Lion was never envisioned before September - so this is not really a big issue.

Also British forces could have been quickly deployed elsewhere if it was necessary (and there were other units apart from regular combat reafy units - those wold have serverd as a "stop gap") - never underestimate the British resolve and that even such units would have been useful!

Eventually it all bears down to that - the harbor (or harbors) where the German supply ships would be unloaded!

Yes, it certainly would have had a major impact and there was a limited amount of them close to the invasion beaches. Certainly, they would have been damaged and would have to be repaired. However, the barges were scheduled to be unloaded directly on the beaches. They were modified to have a front "opening" (don't know the correct English word) and would be towed in by tuggs. Transports would be unloaded through the use of barges. This was certainly not ideal!

IIRC the British at that time thought that German division needed about 300 tons for each day of fighting (and even more it it is Panzer division).

If the 1st wave would consist of 5 division + 5 divisions in the 2nd wave that would mean at least 3000 tons of supplies (ammo, food, fuel etc.) delivered for every single day of fighting.

That would mean about 10-15-20 barges daily (if we approximate river barge sizes).

The problem would then be:

a)
Get those barges intact over the channel.

b)
Manually offload them without a dock (i.e. just by manual labor).

c)
Transport those supplies to actual combat units that were away from the beach.

This is impossible task even for Germans... [;)]

The RAF in 1940 (including Fighter Command and Bomber Command) was at least 1:1 vs. Luftwaffe.

I'm not sure where you got those numbers. Occording to my copy of "the defence of the United Kingdom" part of the United Kingdom official history of the Second world war series, the following numbers are printed.
Germany:
Luftflotte 2&3
Long range bombers: 1.131
Dive-bombers: 316
Single Engine fighters: 809
Twin-Engined figthers: 246

Luftflotte 5 (several of it's units were redeployed to France during the campaign)
Long range bombers: 129
Single Engine fighters: 84
Twin-Engined figthers: 34

UK:
Single engine fighters: 600, 2/3rd Hurri's, 1/3 Spitfire (defiants and Blenheim Sq. excluded).
Coastal command: around 300 mostly obsolete.
Bomber command: hardly more than 500 and also not really very capable. This includes Battle Axes which were cut to pieces over France.

I'll let you do the math yourself. If you have different sources to back up your claim then please share.

So... the Germans did with the "Battle of Britain" after all with such great numerical advantage!

Oh wait!

But they didn't... [;)]


The British had integrated air defense system and they were able to concentrate where and when it was needed - the Germans lacked that - the on-paper numerical superiority Germans had meant littele in teh actual "Battle of Britain"!

To think that Bomber Command would not be able to smash into pieces any port seized by Germans and make it useless is irresponsible - they would do it regardless of losses and they had hundreds of bombers manned with determined crews to do it!

Yes, I suppose that history is irresponsible then as bomber command tried to do just that at the embarkation harbours in France and failed, misserably. Bombing a port out of commission in 1940 was not such a straightforward thing. As the course of the strategic bombing offensive on Germany demonstrates all to well.

The invasion barges were not placed in ports - IIRC they were dispersed in river estuaries on the French coast.

Attacking harbor with docks and cranes is one thing - the RAF Bomber Command was most certainly capable of that - attacking dispersed barges is another...


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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by kg_1007 »

Sealion orders were issued July 2, 1940, actually. Long before September. And reading Manstein's book, as just one example, shows that one German commander, who had a somewhat capable tactical mind, thought the plan could work, and thought they should have done it.
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by glvaca »

War is always a case of action and reaction. I fail to see why in this particular case everything would be decided by the British reaction and the Germans would have no say in the outcome. Please, could you ellaborate on this further?

It was an issue, we were talking about preparations. Well, since the British thought the invasion would be on their East Coast, they put much effort into building beach defences and fortifications at a spot that would not see any action. Secondly, transfering divisions takes time and means of transportation that was already stretched because shipping in the Channel was seriously disrupted and the rail net was insufficient to replace it completely.

I do not underestimate the British resolve, I'm sure they would have fought determinedly as they did the entire war. But if you're going as far as to suggest that the home guard would have been able to make an impression on the German troops at the peak of their efficiency, we will just have to agree to disagree. Resolve is one thing, fighting with rifles against tanks and machine guns operated by elite troops is quite another.

Do you have any idea how badly equipped the British were?

The 300 tons is a figure that is taken from the needs of a UK infantry division. I'll not debate whether or not the Brits needed that much on a daily basis, but it is well known that the Whermacht could do with far less than the Allied divisions. So, anything from upwards 150 tons would certainly have been more than sufficient for a German division.

Besides, and I do admit surprisingly, a Panzer division actually needed less supplies per day than an infantry division. The horse fodder having something to do with it.
How can you be so sure that the Germans would not have captured one or more small harbours reasonably soon? Even a simple peer would have helped a lot and there were plans to construct peers themselves and timber was taken along in the barges.
I agree with your list of problems, but I fail to see why that would have been too much for the Germans. From Calais to Dover is a quick crossing and the Germans did have a considerable amount of transports.

Hold on a second Leo, first you say the British had a 1:1 regarding planes. when I prove the contrary, you start about radar. I'm sure we can agree that the Germans did have a considerable numerical superiority.

Now let's consider you new position, you now claim that the British were able to concentrate superior strength when and were they were necessary because of radar. Wrong!
If anything, the Brits fought constantly at a numerical disadvantage. That's fact. If you don't believe me, buy some books [;)]
Even when the Germans shifted their attention to London, which was a grave error, the Germans still had numerical superiority.
As long as they stayed South of London and over the Channel itself (which is were the fight would have been if the invasion was attempted), the Germans not only had the advantage of numbers but also of equality when it came to distance of _OPERATIONAL_ air bases. The RAF had abandonned the use of the forward airbases for anything other than emergency landings and refueling in the South-East of England.
Before they shifted to daylight attacks on London, the Germans had air superiority in the Channel, were it mattered. Did they manage to break the RAF, no, certainly not. Would they have had to fight for the crossing, certainly, but it would have been quite a different situation than daylight raids on London.

Lastly, those 600 RAF fighters where actually spread out over different Groups covering the whole of Britain. Only approx. 300-350 were ever in a position to be used against German raids. And then part of those where part of 12 Group who, with their big Wing, always turned up late, except during the London attacks.

Off course the barges where in the ports. In fact a good number were lost or damaged.
Transports: 21 lost of total 170
Barges: 214 lost of total 1918
Tugs: 5 lost of total 386

You are seriously over rating the capabilites of Bomber Command this early in the war. If they had 250 operational bombers at this time they would have been very happy. Most of them were Wellingtons and Blenheim, only a few were Whitleys and Hampdons. This was not the force that would mount 1000 bomber raids later in the war!

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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: glvaca

War is always a case of action and reaction. I fail to see why in this particular case everything would be decided by the British reaction and the Germans would have no say in the outcome. Please, could you ellaborate on this further?

It was an issue, we were talking about preparations. Well, since the British thought the invasion would be on their East Coast, they put much effort into building beach defences and fortifications at a spot that would not see any action. Secondly, transfering divisions takes time and means of transportation that was already stretched because shipping in the Channel was seriously disrupted and the rail net was insufficient to replace it completely.

I do not underestimate the British resolve, I'm sure they would have fought determinedly as they did the entire war. But if you're going as far as to suggest that the home guard would have been able to make an impression on the German troops at the peak of their efficiency, we will just have to agree to disagree. Resolve is one thing, fighting with rifles against tanks and machine guns operated by elite troops is quite another.

Do you have any idea how badly equipped the British were?

British were badly equipped after Dunkirk - very true - but Sea Lion was not possible immediately after disaster in France - what British had when Sea Lion was actually possible (i.e. September) was improved situation (not ideal but most certainly much improved)!

And also we should never forget the fact that German units that would actually be able to cross the channel in Sea Lion would not be 100% - they would be disrupted and reduced from crossing at the least...
The 300 tons is a figure that is taken from the needs of a UK infantry division. I'll not debate whether or not the Brits needed that much on a daily basis, but it is well known that the Whermacht could do with far less than the Allied divisions. So, anything from upwards 150 tons would certainly have been more than sufficient for a German division.

Besides, and I do admit surprisingly, a Panzer division actually needed less supplies per day than an infantry division. The horse fodder having something to do with it.

How can you be so sure that the Germans would not have captured one or more small harbours reasonably soon? Even a simple peer would have helped a lot and there were plans to construct peers themselves and timber was taken along in the barges.

I agree with your list of problems, but I fail to see why that would have been too much for the Germans. From Calais to Dover is a quick crossing and the Germans did have a considerable amount of transports.

Unloading on beaches without machines (i.e. cranes) is very very long and hard thing - it is not something that could sustain several divisions fighting inland!

If some ports / harbors with piers / docks and cranes were taken by the attacking Germans I am 100% sure that RAF would do everything it could to disable and/or destroy such facilities... such targets are much smaller and easier to destroy than long stretches of sandy beaches (which are unusable for offloading)...

Hold on a second Leo, first you say the British had a 1:1 regarding planes. when I prove the contrary, you start about radar. I'm sure we can agree that the Germans did have a considerable numerical superiority.

Now let's consider you new position, you now claim that the British were able to concentrate superior strength when and were they were necessary because of radar. Wrong!

If anything, the Brits fought constantly at a numerical disadvantage. That's fact. If you don't believe me, buy some books [;)]

Even when the Germans shifted their attention to London, which was a grave error, the Germans still had numerical superiority.

As long as they stayed South of London and over the Channel itself (which is were the fight would have been if the invasion was attempted), the Germans not only had the advantage of numbers but also of equality when it came to distance of _OPERATIONAL_ air bases. The RAF had abandonned the use of the forward airbases for anything other than emergency landings and refueling in the South-East of England.

Before they shifted to daylight attacks on London, the Germans had air superiority in the Channel, were it mattered. Did they manage to break the RAF, no, certainly not. Would they have had to fight for the crossing, certainly, but it would have been quite a different situation than daylight raids on London.

Lastly, those 600 RAF fighters where actually spread out over different Groups covering the whole of Britain. Only approx. 300-350 were ever in a position to be used against German raids. And then part of those where part of 12 Group who, with their big Wing, always turned up late, except during the London attacks.

Off course the barges where in the ports. In fact a good number were lost or damaged.
Transports: 21 lost of total 170
Barges: 214 lost of total 1918
Tugs: 5 lost of total 386

I have read many books on "Battle of Britain" and I own one of the best on subject (Len Deighton - Fighter) for about 20+ years... so I can say that I have read on the subject quite a lot... [:)]

http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Len-Deigh ... 0785812083

Historically Germans utterly failed in "Battle of Britain" - that is a fact (and the on-paper numerical advantage they had was of no help to them)! [;)]

To believe that Luftwaffe would do better in "Sea Lion" as opposed to "Battle of Britain" is quite a big stretch of imagination... [8D]


On the other side - with today's hindsight the Luftwaffe could have done much much better under command of almost any of us here (as opposed to Goering and many of his planners) - but that didn't happen - the Germans choose the wrong tactics and wrong strategy and they lost the "Battle of Britain" because of it!

If Luftwaffe only:

#1
Keep constant pressure on RAF airfields (and left alone London and other cities)

#2
Attacked radar installations properly and continuously

#3
Attacked Rolls-Royce Merlin production and Spitfire and Hurricane production (they could have even done it at night - they had their own pathfinders and electronic navigation that was yet undiscovered by the British - the firebombing by pathfinders could have marked the area and main bomber force could then simply saturate the marked

etc.

But they didn't... the Luftwaffe never had cohesive plan...

You are seriously over rating the capabilites of Bomber Command this early in the war. If they had 250 operational bombers at this time they would have been very happy. Most of them were Wellingtons and Blenheim, only a few were Whitleys and Hampdons. This was not the force that would mount 1000 bomber raids later in the war!

Bomber command was quite capable of destroying / damaging port facilities captured by German in invasion on English soil if needed!

Why wouldn't they be?

Such captured ports in England would not immediate have German airfield near-by and mass of FLAK like the port facilities in occupied France across the channel - they would be extremely vulnerable and quite withing capability of RAF bomber command...



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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by glvaca »

Well, I have yet to see your position supported by anything more than your gut feeling and personal opinion. Everytime you make a statement that I can disprove you just shift your opinion to something else. Not quite the way I'm used to discussing anything.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then.
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: glvaca

Well, I have yet to see your position supported by anything more than your gut feeling and personal opinion. Everytime you make a statement that I can disprove you just shift your opinion to something else. Not quite the way I'm used to discussing anything.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I can say the very same thing about your position...

BTW, my support is based on history - the Germans DID lose the "Battle of Britain" whilst you keep claiming that they were numerically superior...


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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by glvaca »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: glvaca

Well, I have yet to see your position supported by anything more than your gut feeling and personal opinion. Everytime you make a statement that I can disprove you just shift your opinion to something else. Not quite the way I'm used to discussing anything.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I can say the very same thing about your position...

BTW, my support is based on history - the Germans DID lose the "Battle of Britain" whilst you keep claiming that they were numerically superior...


Leo "Apollo11"

No you can't, as I have backed up my claims with numbers. First the strength returns of the relative airforces. Second the shipping destroyed by bomber command. If you'd like, I can give you list of British formations, their equipment and training and their locations at different times of the battle. I can do the same for the Germans, including embarkation ports, and equipment. If you insist, I can list the location, name, ASW capability and mine clearing equipment of each RN ship and their time to travel towards the invasion beaches. Just to say, I'm pretty well informed.

Leo, respectfully, the German airforce was numerically superior, I doubt you will find any source claiming otherwise. On the other hand the Brits had a substantial reserve on planes to make good losses rapidly while the German could barely keep up with losses and actually say a decrease of frontline strength during the battle, only made good by new Gruppe being sent from Germany and transfered from Norway.
Secondly, proving that the Germans were numerically superior does not automatically mean I'm also claiming they won the battle of Britain. Those are quite distinct things.

What I do claim is that before the shift to London day light attacks, the Germans had achieved substantial air superiority in the Channel area which included the invasion beaches. This is actually acknowledge by several English works on the subject. In part this was due to the evacuation of the forward airfields in the SE of England and because fighter command preferred to fight over English ground to give their pilots the best possible chance of a succesful bail out.
Experienced fighter pilots was always a problem for the Brits at this stage. Please note, the use experienced. They had plenty of pilots, but without proper training in combat tactics they were sitting ducks and usually got shot down pretty quickly, not helped by the Vic formations used and often enforced by superior officers as opposed to the rotte and scharm formations of the Germans which were much more effective.

The main point that needs to be established is what constitutes winning the battle of Britain? Does it mean the totally destruction of fighter command? Or does it mean achieving some sort of air superiority over the Channel? And if so, to which degree?



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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Had Operation Sealion been implememted, what were the Germans expecting for casualties?

100%, although a few of the better swimmers might have made it home....
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by timmyab »

I think Sealion would have been the riskiest operation in the history of warfare and I'm not surprised they abandoned the idea.If you include POWs as casualties then I suppose you could be looking at nearly 100% worst case.
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by IronDuke_slith »

Sea Lion would have been an unmitigated disaster.

The earliest of the assault forces would have needed to leave for England 24 hours before the landing. They are leaving ports in occupied territories so everyone knows they are going and the British will find out they are coming. So, operational and tactical surprise is utterly blown from the outset.

The idea is that these barges then spend several hours travelling at walking space across notoriously choppy waters in long straight lines. The Germans tried a dress rehearsal and in perfect weather, from a starting distance only a short distance out to sea, and without anyone firing a shot in reply, only half the men actually got ashore at all.

Even without British reaction, the German forces that come ashore will do so utterly disorganised.

German Naval Forces are so outmatched, they can not affect the outcome. The minute the Germans are detected a flood of MTBs, Destroyers, Armed trawlers and anything that floats that can mount a machine gun head into the channel. In the ensuing melee many barges will be lost, many more will simply float miles off course.

As they come ashore, British mobile columns will begin moving to meet them. In the meantime, British Cruisers and destroyers escorts will prepare to enter the channel and prevent any further landings. Given most barges will be lucky to reach England, getting home in any sort of state to take a further part in the fighting quickly will be problematical.

In the air, the Luftwaffe is covering the landings, covering the crossing, acting as mobile artillery for the troops ashore and doing none of them well. Any British fighter that gets through in the channel can take a barge out. The thought of a destroyer amongst the long lines of barges conjures up only bloody images.

By the end of day 2, ad hoc German formations ashore will be bogged down in beachheads a few miles across and just a couple of miles inland. Further supplies will not reach them and they'll slowly be starved out.

Sealion stood no chance. Getting troops ashore would have been hard enough. re-supplying and reinforceing them would have been impossible.

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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by ETF »

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell
ORIGINAL: kg_1007
...
Yes, and the Germans had about 600 Ju52's in reserve and a para division (7th) and an Airlift div (22nd), scheduled to drop near Lympne. Pls note, very close to the coast and within full reach of the Me109's. Not to speak of the carnage the Lufwafe bombers would have brought to the Royal Navy in day light. And don't tell me it wouldn't have been possible, they demonstrated their capabilities well enough near Crete.
hmmm Carnage on the RN in the channel with very fast CA's and DD's & MTB's. IIRC the Germans were decent but certainly not trained Naval attack aviators. Nothing like the Japanese.....Did they have what 1 trained torpedo squadron..... There were successes but nothing overwhelming in the MED with 10's of convoys transiting the GAP (Sicily area) all the time.
Re. Airborne losses....
Crete what were the average loses. My source indicates at least 55%......gee in Crete with what air defenses for the Allies.

Sea Lion makes for fun sound bites and nifty what if wargame scenarios. IMHO it stood very very little chance of success. You literally would need divine intervention.


Oh by the way I'm not British. Oh wait I'm from Canada. I guess I am a colonial sympathizer :)
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by glvaca »

The perfect British prpaganda story [:D]
Let's see, British fighter of the period had 8x .303 calibre machine guns with a total firing time of a wopping 12 sec. They could hardly take an unarmored bomber down with this, and you seriously believe they could sink a barge? [:'(]
Barges where actually reinforced with concrete bottoms, carried flak and light howitzers. Pontoons and ferry's were available in quantity with 88's and 37mm AAA guns.
You seem to forget that the Germans planned to lay extensive minefields and needed 10 days for this job. They had penty stockpiled and a large amount of minelayers in several flottilla's.
Not to speak of the FOW which you seem to forget and automatically assume the British high command would take such an important decision of having the complete fleet sail based on first reports, which could be false. If you really believe that by September 1940, the British had any spies capable of warning them of the fleet sailing you are dreaming. They didn't even know the invasion would be launched from the channel ports until late August after air recon found the barges assembling in the ports.

You dream sir!
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: glvaca

The perfect British prpaganda story [:D]
Let's see, British fighter of the period had 8x .303 calibre machine guns with a total firing time of a wopping 12 sec. They could hardly take an unarmored bomber down with this, and you seriously believe they could sink a barge? [:'(]
Barges where actually reinforced with concrete bottoms, carried flak and light howitzers. Pontoons and ferry's were available in quantity with 88's and 37mm AAA guns.
You seem to forget that the Germans planned to lay extensive minefields and needed 10 days for this job. They had penty stockpiled and a large amount of minelayers in several flottilla's.
Not to speak of the FOW which you seem to forget and automatically assume the British high command would take such an important decision of having the complete fleet sail based on first reports, which could be false. If you really believe that by September 1940, the British had any spies capable of warning them of the fleet sailing you are dreaming. They didn't even know the invasion would be launched from the channel ports until late August after air recon found the barges assembling in the ports.

You dream sir!
Warspite1
Let's see, British fighter of the period had 8x .303 calibre machine guns with a total firing time of a wopping 12 sec. They could hardly take an unarmored bomber down with this

Obviously not, that's why we lost the Battle of Britain....Why did He-111's stop flying unescorted from Norway again?

Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by glvaca »

ORIGINAL: ETF

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell


hmmm Carnage on the RN in the channel with very fast CA's and DD's & MTB's. IIRC the Germans were decent but certainly not trained Naval attack aviators. Nothing like the Japanese.....Did they have what 1 trained torpedo squadron..... There were successes but nothing overwhelming in the MED with 10's of convoys transiting the GAP (Sicily area) all the time.
Re. Airborne losses....
Crete what were the average loses. My source indicates at least 55%......gee in Crete with what air defenses for the Allies.

Sea Lion makes for fun sound bites and nifty what if wargame scenarios. IMHO it stood very very little chance of success. You literally would need divine intervention.


Oh by the way I'm not British. Oh wait I'm from Canada. I guess I am a colonial sympathizer :)
Canadian makes you suspect [:'(]
To restate, just for clarity, my point is not that it would have succeeded or that it would have been easy. My point is that dismissing it out of hand as impossible is plainly wrong. It could have succeeded but the odds were against it.

An important point missed in this discussion is that the German Navy complained that Goring was persuing his own personal campaign because he believed he could defeat the RAF alone and settle the matter by himself.
The plan agreed by the different CINC's of the different arms, in August planned for a shift of bombing attacks just before the invasion towards the RN ports and ships.

10's of convoys crossing the Med all the time. LOL, in 1940? You dream sir.

Regarding para's, never said it would have been easy, did I?
And the RN suffered serious losses during the battle and then evacuation of Crete. Please lets agree to keep our facts straight, shall we?
The RN lost 3 Cruisers and 6 destroyers sunk, one CV and 3BB damaged (the Valiant only slightly), 6 cruisers and 7 destroyers damaged. In addition to numerous other vessels lost and/or damaged.
They indeed did not have torpedo bombers at this time (neither in Crete) but they had dive bombers like the stuka's and Ju88 which could be very effective.
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by glvaca »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: glvaca

The perfect British prpaganda story [:D]
Let's see, British fighter of the period had 8x .303 calibre machine guns with a total firing time of a wopping 12 sec. They could hardly take an unarmored bomber down with this, and you seriously believe they could sink a barge? [:'(]
Barges where actually reinforced with concrete bottoms, carried flak and light howitzers. Pontoons and ferry's were available in quantity with 88's and 37mm AAA guns.
You seem to forget that the Germans planned to lay extensive minefields and needed 10 days for this job. They had penty stockpiled and a large amount of minelayers in several flottilla's.
Not to speak of the FOW which you seem to forget and automatically assume the British high command would take such an important decision of having the complete fleet sail based on first reports, which could be false. If you really believe that by September 1940, the British had any spies capable of warning them of the fleet sailing you are dreaming. They didn't even know the invasion would be launched from the channel ports until late August after air recon found the barges assembling in the ports.

You dream sir!
Warspite1
Let's see, British fighter of the period had 8x .303 calibre machine guns with a total firing time of a wopping 12 sec. They could hardly take an unarmored bomber down with this

Obviously not, that's why we lost the Battle of Britain....Why did He-111's stop flying unescorted from Norway again?

Funny, you can't dispute the core of the messge so you resort to other tactics.
I'm quite sure the British pilots found it much more difficult to attack the bombers while escorted, or am I wrong?
Besides, British sources are the ones who claim that British pilots couldn't shoot and had difficulty taking down bombers with the .303's. But I doubt you actually have read anything on the subject.
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Howard Mitchell
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by Howard Mitchell »

glvcaa, are you actually claiming the Germans won the Battle of Britian?
While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics – they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim
glvaca
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by glvaca »

ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell

glvcaa, are you actually claiming the Germans won the Battle of Britian?

For CHRIST SAKE!
No, I'm not saying they won the battle of Britain as they did not achieve their objective, which was bringing the Brits to the negotiating table and have peace.
Secondly, they did not achieve in forcing Britain to surrender.

However, what I DO claim, and which is supported by numerous British authors, is that for all intents and purposes, they did achieve a substantial measure of air superiority over the channel and SE of England.

Whether that would have been enough to guarantee the success of Sealion is certainly NOT the case BUT it was enough to make it possible, even if it would have been against the odds and would have certainly have been very costly. But it CERTIANLY NOT would have meant certain defeat either and the RN would have paid a serious price to try and prevent it too.

That's about the 10th time I'm writing this, so please stop twisting my words.
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Howard Mitchell
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by Howard Mitchell »

ORIGINAL: glvaca
.... Not to speak of the carnage the Lufwafe bombers would have brought to the Royal Navy in day light. And don't tell me it wouldn't have been possible, they demonstrated their capabilities well enough near Crete.

Unfortunately I do have to tell you that the luftwaffe would not have been able to deliver carnage aginst the Royal Navy. In 1940 it simply didn't have the airmen trained to attack warships. The proof of this is Dunkirk, where 9 of 56 Destroyers were sunk, no corvettes of 11 committed, no sloops of 6 committed, and 5 of 38 minesweepers committed. The Royal Navy could take these losses and still effectively carry out its mission. It did so off Dunkirk and it would have done so off invasion beaches in the UK as well. The luftwaffe would doubtless have inflicted damage, but not enough and not quickly enough to prevent the invasion fleet from having been savaged.

You must also remember that the Royal Navy would have operated effectively at night, and given a channel clogged with German invasion barges and tugs would have found easy pickings then as well.

I'm afraid I'm simply not convinced by your arguments. They mostly seem to amount to claiming that anyone disagreeing with you is biased.

The heads of the German armed forces in 1940, on the other hand, seem to have been more convinced by the arguments against an invasion being successful than those in favour of it.
While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics – they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by danlongman »

"But I doubt you actually have read anything on the subject." -glvaca
I am not even in this one and you just threw your entire argument right out the window.
dan
"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Howard Mitchell
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RE: OT: Operation Sealion

Post by Howard Mitchell »

ORIGINAL: glvaca
However, what I DO claim, and which is supported by numerous British authors, is that for all intents and purposes, they did achieve a substantial measure of air superiority over the channel and SE of England.

Rubbish.
While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics – they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim
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