Matrix Games Forums

Gentlemen, I think we need to draw a line under the whole " Regarding the next official AAR" situation and Jon (PyleDriver's) decision not to produce another AAR because of the responses he received in his survey thread.

I think we are all lucky that the moderation of this forum is as lenient as it has been; there are many threads that would have/should have been locked in other forums, but have been allowed to continue here. The by-product of this is that the testers who are willing to post here open themselves up to (I hope this is the right word) abuse that forces people like Jon to stop posting. Other testers are posting less, and I was forced to stop posting in one thread because one of the participants refused to have a rational debate on a subject and resorted to name calling.

If you look at the other "In Development" Forums you will see varying levels of activity, and indeed some developers don't expose themselves to any pre-release scrutiny.

2by3 has taken a risk by allowing testers to post in these forums, as they know that many people make their buying decision based on the information they glean from the threads, and the testers who post here are aware of this responsibility, and we do our best to present information about the game the best we can. Some people like what we do, some don't, and use their freedom of speech to express their views about what they don't like using language that is offensive to the posters who are doing their best.

Perhaps the time has come for all testers to stop posting until the game is released in X weeks time and you can make your buying decisions based on the reviews of "experts" whose opinions you respect, the problem with that is that, I believe, that these reviewers will have to play the game for at least one month, before they will have the knowledge and understanding of the game to give a valid opinion of the game. Whereas we testers can give you the benefit of the knowledge we have accrued from testing, but we obviously seem unable express our views in a way that gains the same respect that "expert" reviewers seem to get.

Most of the AARs produced are kept in the private development forum because they are used for bug hunting and to show what the testers think is wrong with the game, and so are of very little value to the public forums, because you all want to know what is right with the game.

The AAR's that have been published in the public forums have been of produced with the best of intentions. Lee's (Elmo3) showed that he probably wasn't ready for the challenging level of difficulty, as he suffered badly in the blizzard and had advanced on Moscow on too narrow a front. Don and I made an aborted effort to get a 1943 campaign off the ground using a version that turned out not to be ready for testing. But Jon's AAR was, I thought, a good demonstration of how you construct and execute a strategy that armchairs strategists debate endlessly.

The major by-product of Jon's AAR is that the designers have completely re-designed the 1942 Campaign, that will give you, the prospective player a much better, and more realistic challenge. Jon's efforts have made WITE a better game and his reward is to be hounded out of the forums. Jon made it clear, time and time again, sometimes abruptly, the terms and conditions under which he was producing the AAR, and time and time again he was ignored.

It is clear that the majority of the active participants in this forum do not want Jon to stop producing AAR's, but that a small minority continue to try and force their own agenda onto the rest of us.

The future of public AAR's is in the balance, as each tester has to decide whether they are ready, willing and able to make the effort to produce an AAR and then to expose themselves to the reaction that the AAR will generate. We are all volunteers who have "proper" jobs, but who are prepared to give their spare time to participate in a process that is producing a truly great game.

Personally, I hope that Jon will change his mind. It is not clear yet whether he has stopped testing too. I hope he hasn't as he (and Ron) are the most vocal in trying to get 2by3 to make changes that will make the game better than it already is.

The Plan's for public AAR's were as follows:

1. Don and I to restart a 1943 PBEM Campaign when the game enters Beta.
2. A Road to Leningrad scenario PBEM (Joel has asked for volunteers but no one has put themselves forward for it)
3. Whatever Jon had planned.

In the meantime, while waiting for the Beta, Joel has given me permission to put excerpts from my test AAR into the public forum.

Stay tuned.

What would be a great shame would be if this excellent forum ceased to function because of all this bad blood.    Why so hard to disagree and have fun doing it?

S

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

What would be a great shame would be if this excellent forum ceased to function because of all this bad blood.    Why so hard to disagree and have fun doing it?

S

Completely agree with you Stuart.

Some of the posts directed towards Jon have been totally out of order. I have been a member of many forums over the years and I have been greatly saddened by some of the posts in this forum.

Everyone has different views on how the game should be played, but please agree to disagree politely and with restraint.

There is always someone who just has to put in his 2 cents worth even though its not worth a plug nickel and then gets bent when told so.

There needs to be a way for AAR reporters to post their AARs in threads that are READ-ONLY to everyone else. The idea of someone making a post in the middle of an AAR is absurd. Then it becomes difficult for anyone else to read it.

Again, if there is no way do to this then this problem is not gonna be easily solved.

Zaratoughda

The idea of someone making a post in the middle of an AAR is absurd. Then it becomes difficult for anyone else to read it.

I respectfully disagree. If we were discussing an AAR found in say the old original Avalon Hill's The General or SPI MOVES magazine on board war games then yes I would agree, but this is a PC war game and this is an electronic forum.

Jon did layout his ground rules on how he wanted his AAR to proceed, but you can't control all things unless you have sophisticated software to help you do this. In Jon's defense play testing does consume enourmous amounts of time and energy and so I do understand his reasoning.

When Bob and I begun our ill fated aborted H2H AAR our intentions were to describe the game and to cultivate questions and answerer them the best we could. Currently we are in the process of creating the tutorial, a guide and a manual. Each has its own unique characteristics and has a specific audience in mind and taken as a whole (at least in my mind) they should be all encompassing.

Besides testing, hunting for bugs (or discovering), writing and learning the system (as it evolves in minute ways or tweaking if you will) there is a lot of analysis, research, and zillion other things that get dynamically wrapped up into the fabric of this game.

Sorry I have lost my train of thought and my intended purpose so it's almost time for me to get off of work, eat some chow, kiss my wife good night, send my boys to bed and kick my dogs in the head so I can get back to the testing and writing as we slip into another day...

If people want to ask questions and the like that is fine, in ANOTHER THREAD. Then, you won't disrupt the flow of the AAR thread, and the AAR poster is free to respond or not their discretion.

Of course, again, the technology to do that is not here in these forums, but it is NOT that sophisticated. Just something that isn't available yet (unless I am mistaken).

Zaratoughda

A companion thread would be a good idea. It would keep both the AAR thread and the Q&A thread clean(er).

it is odd, most of mine here, have been more along the lines of a mini AAR, to show what is going on, and what not, every one I have had going, I have been told, it was time to start over, the new changes, were too much

now, Jon was even told it was time to give up, but he wanted to finish his off first

it is a HARD line to try and follow, we want to show off the game, but we also are testing, and most of these AAR's and also, being used as tests, things that happen, get reported, get fixed, and then the fixes need to be tested, so it is really HARD to keep a AAR going for a week or more

in another post, I posted a opening and closing screen, and I think it was taking the wrong way, what I was trying to show, was this was the start and this was the end, but before I could do anything on the forum, I already had two new verisons of the battle for testing

so, my reports on the AAR I was going to do, I already had a corrected version in my hands, before I could post (that morning and that night I had a newer reworked version to try out)

so, really, I had 90 screen shots of that first trail run, and by the end of the day, most of them had nothing to do with what the battle looked like now, so wasn't worth even showing

right now, I think the last Version is pretty good, for a training battle, it is short and sharp, and fun, a little here or a little there, and the AI could even slap you in face (and we trying to see if we can get the AI set up to do so)

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

There needs to be a way for AAR reporters to post their AARs in threads that are READ-ONLY to everyone else. The idea of someone making a post in the middle of an AAR is absurd. Then it becomes difficult for anyone else to read it.

Again, if there is no way do to this then this problem is not gonna be easily solved.

Zaratoughda

I got to disagree, I have been in a lot of AAR's for other games, and where it can be a hassle is when you see people are reading it, but nothing is being said

I know and understands Jon's point, but there are going to be questions, there are going to be pats on the back and gee that was dumb wasn't it statements, but a AAR needs feedback also, or it becomes a hey, look at me post

I disagree with the straight 'read-only' AAR.   There was a time during Jon's (PD's) thread that it really felt like we were all on the journey together - a genuinely exciting story was unfoliding.   At one point arguments were taking place elsewhere on different threads, people even said 'I'll post this question in the Q&A', but all the discussion in the thread was about the campaign, what to do next, why do that at all? etc, not questions about the mechanics or questions about design.   It worked really well.  

Without the opportunity to question/comment about the S&T it would have been a poorer thread, IMO.

Stuart

PS Jon - give us another!

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

I disagree with the straight 'read-only' AAR.   There was a time during Jon's (PD's) thread that it really felt like we were all on the journey together - a genuinely exciting story was unfoliding.   At one point arguments were taking place elsewhere on different threads, people even said 'I'll post this question in the Q&A', but all the discussion in the thread was about the campaign, what to do next, why do that at all? etc, not questions about the mechanics or questions about design.   It worked really well.  

Without the opportunity to question/comment about the S&T it would have been a poorer thread, IMO.

Stuart

PS Jon - give us another!

Great Post.
Although I posted in the other thread. I stated twice I enjoyed PD's AAR.
My questions were about Russian unit strength. Combat battalions and Mud. All after I saw things in the screen shots. The only time I felt "pile dived" on was when I thought it stupid to not attack routed units during a mud turn. OP Typhoon anyone?
I got a history lesson including pictures about mud in Russia.
Hard Sarge you are delusional if you didnt think you were being cute and use your "power[:D]" and post those SS after I suggested PD post after his AAR was done.
PD I would like to read another of your AAR's.

I followed Jon's AAR with great interest. It was a great AAR. I really want this game a lot more as a result of it. I also want another AAR from Jon.

I have also followed the drama involved with Jon's AAR with great interest. Why? I don't know, I guess it is just another fascinating struggle much like the AAR. I can't help but comment on it even though it is going to open me up as a target. So here is my 2 cents worth...

There has been several AAR's on the forum. All have been good but Jon's was the one I had to check every night. Great alternate strategy combined with a great AAR. However, I understand those who were frustrated with Jon's personality. It didn't bother me really but I thought there was a lack of understanding on his part as to the excitement shared by posters on his AAR thread in response to the game and his AAR. If I was in his shoes I would have just ignored the posts asking about game mechanics if I didn't want to answer.

He came across as the the kid in the neigborhood who has a new toy, is willing to show it off, maybe even share...but insists that everyone know it is his toy. Asking if he should conduct another AAR just further reinforced this view; of course we want another one, even those who criticized Jon. By asking if we wanted another AAR he was "looking for permission" to continue as he had. Those who had a problem with him called him out. Now he has taken his toy home and refuses to come out and play. Come out and play Jon.

I haven't seen problems with the other AAR writers, so therefore I think the problem is with Jon. However I still would like another AAR from him and I think all other want him back also.

As a compromise, I would say Zaratoughda's idea is better than testers going to no public AAR's at all.
Baron von Beergut

ORIGINAL: csarebel

I followed Jon's AAR with great interest. It was a great AAR. I really want this game a lot more as a result of it. I also want another AAR from Jon.

I have also followed the drama involved with Jon's AAR with great interest. Why? I don't know, I guess it is just another fascinating struggle much like the AAR. I can't help but comment on it even though it is going to open me up as a target. So here is my 2 cents worth...

There has been several AAR's on the forum. All have been good but Jon's was the one I had to check every night. Great alternate strategy combined with a great AAR. However, I understand those who were frustrated with Jon's personality. It didn't bother me really but I thought there was a lack of understanding on his part as to the excitement shared by posters on his AAR thread in response to the game and his AAR. If I was in his shoes I would have just ignored the posts asking about game mechanics if I didn't want to answer.

He came across as the the kid in the neigborhood who has a new toy, is willing to show it off, maybe even share...but insists that everyone know it is his toy. Asking if he should conduct another AAR just further reinforced this view; of course we want another one, even those who criticized Jon. By asking if we wanted another AAR he was "looking for permission" to continue as he had. Those who had a problem with him called him out. Now he has taken his toy home and refuses to come out and play. Come out and play Jon.

I haven't seen problems with the other AAR writers, so therefore I think the problem is with Jon. However I still would like another AAR from him and I think all other want him back also.

+1

I think we all know the feel of the game by now or should by reading the AAR's. Anything else at this point is a waste of breath. Let the testers iron the bugs out so we can get this puppy up and running and on the shelves. A wise move on Jon's part, kudo's, when the AAR thread started to lose it's way it was game over. Ok this guy smells good (not Olive Garden) ... we've had a taste (might be Don Coriloine's favorite sauce) ... now's the time to have the 4 course meal (meatballs, saget, garlic bread ... etc). LET THE TESTERS FINISH!!

We've mostly had a taste of the early war years in AAR's aside from some posts by Hard Sarge and his mini-AAR's and have seen little PBEM'ing. The handful of late war screenshots that have been posted give us an impression, so a late war AAR vs the AI will probably just show how the Soviets will crush anything in their path. We now know that the AI will put up a fairly decent fight, but we've seen little PBEM'ing.

A short AAR of one of the "Road to..." scenarios would probably still be enjoyable, the shortlived Andy vs Trey AAR was both informative and entertaining in any case. If there are recent PBEM AAR's on the development forum, I'm guessing future buyers would appreciate it if it were to be posted on this forum prior to launch, so people can also get an impression of what it's like to play this PBEM.