Balance discussion

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Nada

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Germans can easily outrun fleeing soviets with their motorized and panzer formations in 41 and 42 both and 43 to be honest as most German motorized units keep very high morale for a long time and enemy controlled hex cost is based on the units morale.

Also Xhoel, I comment in your AAR...but look at a historical map of the 1941 campaign and you will quickly see you are far in advance of historical by 1-2 months across almost the entire front. This is why me and HLYA talk balance issues.

I made a comment in the AAR but won't be pursuing a discussion there.
I am approaching this discussion by talking about the points that have been raised by Soviet players, among others you. I said:

-contrary to what was stated panzers can take losses and gave you an example (you can check the screenshots in my AAR to see for yourself). You said that that is not the problem if I manage my TOEs correctly. I gave you arguments why that is not the case and you didn't address the point again.
-I said I'm for a fix of the Soviet construction bug and experience gain bug.
-I said I'm for limitations to using ports as major supply centers.
-I said I'm pro for the +1 rule to be revised so that it ends in November, making more Axis players open to playing with it.
-I asked about how the HQ swap fuel exploit works and you didn't answer.
-Add extra options at the start of the game for the ''expert'' players to have more choice.

After all the points I raised and things I said you went with the fact that in my AAR I am 1-2 months ahead of the actual German advance, completely ignoring the fact that my opponent has been retreating constantly and has kept his army more or less intact. This is a game, with certain mechanics (which do not replicate all the things that actually happened), open to be played as the player sees fit not a simulation so that point of yours is moot.

MarauderPL stated it before and so has Tele and I'm sure that EvK has done the same: Many Axis players that don't post here do far worse than what you are used to seeing in the AARs. Simply saying that all it takes for the Axis to win is to master the supply system is simplyfing the problem and acting like the Axis have the game handed over to them, they only need to learn how supply works which is not the case.

If you want to have a meaningful discussion please approach the points I made, don't jump around finding other arguments as then this stops having any meaning as a thread.

[mouse707]

I don't want to involve too much in the discussion as I'm not an expert player. But the viewpoint of an intermediate player can provide some insights in the discussion, since the game is not directed only toward expert players.

I've played 15 games so far, always as the soviet. On these games, only 1 has gone toward 1942 (the current one vs bitburger). In all other games except one, the german player resigned because he wasn't able to advance sufficiently. On several occasions, the German player stopped on turn 2 to 5, very early. If he sees that he does not destroy the soviet southfront, he often stops the game (while if we talk about history, south front was very difficult for Germany, and that was only the coming forces from the AGC that helped to advance)
I do play forward defense, and it was very difficult for every beginner to intermediate player to advance toward rising russian troops if they do not destroy many of them early. In the remaining game, it's me that did not respond to the first german turn. It was Bendeer who played it, and before having the possibility to move a single unit, the whole russian army was trapped on turn 1. There was no point to spend hundred of hours moving the soviet units knowing that without troops, you can't play.

So what I can see is that the game is very german oriented for top players, but playing the german is very very difficult for other players. A single look at the "Opponent wanted" section shows that the majority of them request a german opponent. And no russian player can tell that playing the soviet the first summer is particularly exciting.
Then a change in the rules of the game should only change small "exploits" (or gamey things or any name you want), that allows some players to make a super extended Lvov pocket, to optimize supply toward mobile units just by changing the HQ, to concentrate rail repair, to use Ports without restrictions and so on, while at the same time, not rising the difficulty for the 95% of german players remaining.

[Stelteck]

The problem of the german player is the first turn have to be perfect.

It is a huge burden.

I would really love a scenario that start one week after the opening of the war with the historical positions. (Like in WITP there is a scenario that start the day after the historical pearl harbor).

[chaos45]

- panzer AFV losses are very low.....we are talking AFVs. As well again ToE management will keep them topped off with infantry/guns esp if you cycle them.
-Most the fixes you list as I have said are about what ive asked for in addition to some scenario fixes to limit super lvov
-as to HQ exploits...not being a german expert not sure 100% how it works....but its something like u keep a selection of HQs back at the rail head then move them up when they are full supply and swap out the units from an empty fuel corps so next turn they fill up. As well is some type of HQ thing were German infantry corps HQs keep alot of fuel on hand but the infantry Divs dont need them so you can put 1 Motor div in an infantry HQ and get it more fuel than normal....thats my understanding of how it works.
- the problem with adding more options is some players don't like to use them...thus fewer players to get a good game with.
-A big issue right now in the game is soviet player doesnt matter as much against good German player...fight forward and you just lose massively as you cant slow down super German CV. Retreat and fight for the main objectives- again super German CV wins every time. It really is just a matter of how much MP the German player has on their motorized and panzer divisions on how long and what you can hold due to the CV disparity.

Now some of the suggested fixes go a long way towards balancing things...but the patch team has been relatively quiet on what they are actually changing.

[SparkleyTits]

I tend to lose a lot of AFV in 41 to the point where I have to consistently hold myself back in a hefty % of my Axis games and limit my options in order to keep a strong supplement of AFV in spring 42

In 41 panzers can be killed just fine and if Axis does not keep an eye on it they won't have a full supplement of AFV come spring 42 (Perhaps I am aggresive with my armour arm so others don't lose so much?)
It's later on once the models get to pz4 and beyond they become a problem so they aren't as big an issue in the very early war I feel

The HQ exploit is a one off deal and not going to rails and switching supplies
If you look at all Axis armies they will have fuel in stores in them on turn 1, you can use AP to put panzers under said armies command (There is enough fuel for about 2 panzers) but bare in mind there are only a couple of armies that are optimal for it ratings wise to get the most out of the deal and that are not overloaded
Once the fuel is used up it's gone and can't be done ever again

[Stelteck]

Remember there is a lots of differents panzers. The axis loose far more easily panzer II and panzer 38 than Panzer 3 or 4.

[SparkleyTits]

If you look back on older AAR's and ideas from years ago I would guess that on average the playerbase is higher in skill than perhaps it was 3 years ago +
This is apparent from an Axis standpoint quite heavily as it is the side that needs less mistakes to play well

Unfortunately this translates into players needing reactionary responses for them to adapt and grow in order to stay above water as high level players

For the Soviets, one place I would definitely say is needed at the moment to continue to advance and stay at a top level is to learn Axis alongside main playing Soviets as it broadens your repitoire
It seems the trend to me nowadays is that players that only play Soviets are having a very hard time staying competetive at the higher skill levels

It teaches a huge amount of nuance for me personally playing both sides alongside eachother

[chaos45]

ST disagree---soviet nerfs is almost completely to blame for the drastic game changes....as well as German buffs. You can talk to Morvael there were some very big German buffs that happened on accident in I think it was patch .08 that they have since been trying to adjust the game to fix.

As well the patch team became abit overzealous at the same time with Soviet Nerfs. You can look at old matches and see a completely different soviet army on the field and completely different Axis rate of advance. Talk to beender as he seems to be from many the top player right now...I did not play a bad game vs him at all...its simply a matter of German MP and unstoppable CV in the first about 20 turns.

The soviet nerfs have been constant and just finally reached an overwhelming weakness in the soviet army that it can no longer really deal with the Super lvov. The older patch versions of the game had the soviet army just strong enough to still survive after super lvov type moves as new divisions arrived abit earlier and were abit stronger due to more manpower and more experience gain. As well you had a much stronger Soviet engineer corps which allowed them to dig in and get fortified bonuses abit easier.

Just in that one paragraph is a ton of CV reductions to Soviets....while the Germans just got faster and faster due to the supply changes the patch team made.

I highly recommend that players that feel the soviets are the easy side to face a german player than can do Super Lvov type southern opening and you will quickly see its nigh impossible to slow the Germans after.

[SparkleyTits]

Since I started playing the past 2 years Russia has become much more balanced and managable from what I can remember?
So I am not entirely sure what you mean by constant and drastic changes that only buff Axis and debuff Soviets

I'm not saying you aren't correct to a degree as a game like this one will always need more balance of course but I certainly don't think the game is as lobsided as you advocate
I think the team has done brilliant work since I have been playing to making this game better in all regards

[STEF78]

German side is far harder to play than the russian one. It allows less errors on the 10/15 first turn but on the other side there is nothing to do against top notch german players.

I've played 25 GC on both sides and I've been swept in 1941 as russian against 2 players:
- HLYA beat me in 10 turns but I shouldn't have agreed to play with a no +1 / vanilla blizzard setting. Against a high skilled german player there is nothing to do without +1. But I admit that HLYA is a better player than me.
- Bozo beat me in 12 turns... he was just far better than me.
The 2 other games were lost in 1942 at a time when we didn't get automatic return of destroyed units past 02/1942

I think a good house rule is to allow Lvov Pocket but to deny super Lvov.
Other option would be +1/mild blizzard

I will propose such a setting in my next game. From my experience it gives a fun game against most players.

[xhoel]

@chaos45: Here are two example from my AAR: 3rd Panzer Division has 84 AVFs operational, the 14th Panzer Division has 92 AVFs operational. Unless you want to deny facts, German Panzers take losses just fine.
-As to the HQ exploit I would advise you to play a German player that does not take advantage of this till it gets fixed.
-I think more options are better to accomodate a small number of players.
-Massive German CV? I must have missed this one since in my game I'm attacking with 2-3 divisions in deliberate attacks in order to push back strong Soviet defenses. This is one of the major problems I have with the way you present your case.
''super German CV wins every time'' is simply not the case and a complete distortion of reality.
-Supply buff for the Germans? When was that implemented?

From what I have gathered from many players that have expressed their viewpoints here the consensus seems to be that while small tweaks are needed to ensure the game gets even more balanced, the game is already balanced.

[chaos45]

xhoel---a german panzer division can be 20+ CV in 1941...that's one division. Often all you need to do is have infantry break the soviet fortified front line and the that one or at most 2 panzer divisions in a stack can hasty attack most other soviet units out of the way.

Against a Super Lvov opening its very hard to build any depth into soviet defenses in 1941 as you just don't have the forces available. In your current game you did not pull off the super Lvov so the soviets were in abit better shape unit and manpower wise thus offering up better/more realistic resistance...and even then you are doing just fine, you still have some time until mud and then will have a couple turn of frost after mud.

Also a 20 CV German division esp if it is able to get into a town or woods...is virtually invincible to soviet forces in 1941...thus once u break the soviet lines u can park panzer units and the soviet play in effect cannot move them ever. Doesn't even need to be 20 CV...anything over about 10 CV esp if it gets a terrain bonus is very hard for the soviets to move in 1941 without a game bonus.

As to game tweaks it seems most ppl are more or less agreed with my initial suggestions- which is odd as many attacks as I seem to get. I will repeat my suggestions yet again:
-Fix exp gain- is for both sides
-fix soviet digging
-fix the AA guns...they are much to good---kinda an auto include in the fix list lol
-Scenario tweak to limit super lvov move- Im not talking stop it completely my suggestion was to allow the 1 soviet tank grp to not get encircled and to put a garrison in Odessa- so tweaks not massive changes.
-I also do feel soviet manpower generation is alittle weak at the moment, one fix I suggested was just add a slightly bigger starting manpower pool instead of an entire game manpower buff--this seems to be playing out more and more in games where the soviets have more guns then men basically the entire war....which it really shouldnt work out that way. This was a later suggestion while waiting on the patch team to decide what they are doing.

These fixes IMO wont break the current game at all I think would give a more balanced and playable game to both sides.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Nada

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Nada

[MarauderPL]

Are you talking about the strategy where you avoid activating the Southern Front and then gobble it up in a swift drive a turn or two later? Thats not a secret for a long time. On the other hand, if you are talking about something completely different, then maybe its really better not to tell [:D]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Nada

[beender]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


I have a German opening now that does not have to be perfect. Matter of fact in the south I dont even need to go that far. Say 5 hexes on anything on hex line with Rovno and below just to make a small advance. Personnelly I think this opening is even more deadly than the extended lvov opening. Maybe I will pick up a lucky person that can defend against it ;-p. Hell, I dont even need to make a pocket on the 1st turn as Germany now. Maybe I will release it with an in depth write up from A to Z to bring German players up to speed quickly. But I have been reluctant.

I happened to have a similar idea recently while playing the Soviet side extensively. In South there are really some very good units (by Soviet standard) and thus the room for German to improve their openings. Indeed there is no need at all to maximize return on T1, as generally about every 3 turns should be considered together, which is the rhythm mobile divisions act at.

[D511]

in my current game with Tollwut his Axis Panzer Division just not going in to the battle how i can beat such enemy? ))
Strange 12 Panzer Division

[VigaBrand]

My impression is, with a good axis player, you should play with +1/mild blizzard.

The low SU CV leads to good attack chances for the axis, but chaos is right, this means mostly no chances to move the germans.
If you higher the overall cv from the soviets, than you could move the germans, but this means the well dig in soviets are nearly impossible to move. Thise balancing act is hard to solve. So with actual settings, you need +1 so that the game will work and both sides had fun (could win).