Can we nerf this at some point next patch?

[Peltonx]

Before it becomes the flavor of the month?

It for one seems totally nonhistorical and is exploiting the rail conversion system by design.

Most games other then this one that deal with eastern front, the lines are converted so many hexs per turn per line.

This game because of the lacking logistical system has made 5 counters to convert rail lines. This has alrdy been nerfed down to 4 and 6, which means there will only be a few lines to the front areas by turn 12ish.Long lines with no way to defend then other then string out 10 divisions to defend 1 line.

The SHC player can drop 1 unit next to the 1941 start lines and the line will be cut for several turns as the RR unit will have to walk back to the cut.

Several players have pointed out to me this could be done more then 2+ turns in a row and cut off 1 AG for 3 or 4 turns and the RHC player could destory most of not all the units in that area because of a lack of supplies.

Is this historical for 1941? I hole AG wiped out because of a few air dropps?

Lets be honest allot of "exploits" have been removed from game or nerfed to reflex history. Mostly German, which is fine.

This really needs to be taken care of. The guys I talked to about it know they can do it but do not because its just plain stupid that its even possible. As you can simply drop one whenever your in trouble in 1941 and the german player is screwed for 2 turns min.

Pelton

[JAMiAM]

What makes this so devastating is that the forward FBDs cannot use rail movement to get back to the break. This is a problem, even with partisans.

[Flaviusx]

My own personal rule of thumb here is to not play any tricks with paras until blizzard. After that...

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

My own personal rule of thumb here is to not play any tricks with paras until blizzard. After that...

After that, it's like Lux Interior from the Cramps said, "You got your g-strings 'n' gin, and nylon hose, chicken pot pie, anything goes!"

Or, was it Cole Porter?[:D]

[Flaviusx]

Heh. Quick and dirty fix: maybe limit drop ranges more? These drops hundreds of miles behind the lines really are dubious.

[Q-Ball]

.....or have a house rule against this. I personally think it's gamey to take out the rail line with Paras. I have to agree with Pelton here.

[wdkruger]

I agree, a range limit would make sense to avoid suicidal air drops. Arnhem was about 67 miles behind the lines. I'd suggest a limit of 8 hexes behind lines and perhaps 3 from the sea would make sense. Not sure how easy this would be to code.

The inability of the FBD units to move "backwards" to the point of the break is a problem. Ideally FBD units should be allowed to use isolated railroads to get to the damage site. Again, this might be hard to code.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Heh. Quick and dirty fix: maybe limit drop ranges more? These drops hundreds of miles behind the lines really are dubious.

hehhe yes it is kinda fully.

But exploses the logistic/rail system that wite is currently stuck with. I know witw and wite2 will not have is issue, but if I was thinking about buying this game. This one silly trick would make me say "you got to be kidding me. Thats the best they could do in 5 yrs of developement?"

Best fix would be no air drops until after March 1942. By then there are allot more lines to front and several north south lines linked up.

As it is the German player can't build anything, but russian player can so there needs to be some protection from exploits like this. I am sure if GHC players could build para's we have them dropping 500 miles from front on rail links. The south would be the best area.

Needless to say I be dropping this game. I had a breakthrough going in center and opps 3000 para's drop 300 miles from front stopping 300,000 men for 2 weeks. Now I have a huge hole in the south and again opps 3000 para's drop 7 hexes from 1941 start line stopping your 300,000 man AGS breakthrough for 3 turns.

Atleast the game exposed a weakness in the logistic and rail system that needs to be addressed so not a total waste of time.

Pelton

[Flaviusx]

Pelton, the Sovs dropped paras during the blizzard counteroffensive. These guys caused quite a ruckus behind AGC's lines, they joined up with Belov's cavalry in an ongoing pocket that lasted for months. But not hundreds of miles in the rear.

[elmo3]

The mostly unsuccessful Soviet drop in '43 was about 200km behind the lines IIRC. So that is about 125 miles or about a dozen hexes.

[Denniss]

Nobody is talking about the misuse of the current supply system by converting only one ot two lines eastwards per sector. So your opponent used a spoiled system with airdrops to crush yur spoiled supply system with just minor rail conversion.

I ususlly leave only one construction Bn per Corps/Army/Front HQ and move all other to OKH to get the rear area rail conversion done.

[Seminole]

It exposes people who fail to make interconnects in their rail net.

Here's some historical rail marks.
18 July 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Porkhov
23 August 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Luga
29 September 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Staraya Russa

How many weeks before that do you put rail in these locations? I'm genuinely curious.
How much faster are you able to build the rail than was historically accomplished? Should that be nerfed? Should historical accomplishment be the defining limiting factor in what is possible in this game? I would think not.

Best fix would be no air drops until after March 1942.

But the Soviets made air drops in the first winter:

During the Soviet counter-offensive for the Defense of Moscow at Vyazma, 27th January 1942, the Soviet 4th Airborne Corps began a series of night drops of paratroopers in the German rear. Forty civilian and twenty-two military aircraft, escorted by limited numbers of fighters and ground attack aviation, supported the landings. From the beginning, the operation did not go well.

After, six nights, only 2,100 men from the 10,000-man airborne corps had been dropped in. Because of bad weather and the pilots' inexperience with night navigation, most of these troops landed twenty kilometers south of the intended drop zone. Plans for five to six sorties each night did not take into account adverse weather conditions, aircraft failures, or combat losses. Also, the failure to conceal the buildup of troops at the airborne fields led to the closing of one of them by German bombers. The remaining two fields provided only two to three sorties per night.

The paratroops that landed, however, did succeed in interdicting lines of communication in the German rear area for almost three weeks, in part because of their linkup with the 1st Guards Cavalry Corps on 6 February.

I'm all for addressing the efficacy (randomness in ability to hit the target hex, etc), but I think pulling the ability is harsh, and not supported by the historical record.

If German players can make faster, deeper panzer pushes than the Germans did historically, why should Soviets be limited to no airborne operations when they actually conducted them (however poorly)? Isn't the point of the game for both sides to ultimately do better than historical?

If the Germans were putting more effort into building a rail net and less effort into pushing every inch west that the game engine allows, they would to a large degree mitigate this problem (and a more western rail head would allow the game to more effectively demonstrate front line supply issues late in Barbarossa campaign. You can also cover important rail junctions and prevent drops (and partisan damage). So really, this can be addressed with game play instead of nerfing.

You take the risk such a strategy entails you live (or die) with it, imo.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Nobody is talking about the misuse of the current supply system by converting only one ot two lines eastwards per sector. So your opponent used a spoiled system with airdrops to crush yur spoiled supply system with just minor rail conversion.

I ususlly leave only one construction Bn per Corps/Army/Front HQ and move all other to OKH to get the rear area rail conversion done.

A fair point, and expert Axis players have definitely, shall we say, optimized rail conversion.

But for all of that making drops this far back is very sketchy and I for one can't defend it. It just didn't happen.

[Seminole]

At least the game exposed a weakness in YOUR logistic and rail system that needs to be addressed so not a total waste of time.

Why didn't you establish the rail net close to the European border? What did you do with those HQs and their FBD units? Are all the supplies for AGS really coming down a single track to the Ukraine?
Is that realistic, or 'gamey'?
Isn't that a risk you chose to push faster east with your rail heads? It cost you time and momentum, but you thought the risk was worth the reward, and this time it didn't pay.

I'm really curious how fast you establish railhead compared to the historical marks I noted by the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft. I'm not calling for it to be nerfed, I'm just wondering how many weeks progress you're gaining with the risk you're taking.

[Q-Ball]

I try to build interconnecting rail as Axis, but there just isn't time, and there certainly isn't by T-15, which is the example Pelton posted.

A good HR is to limit drops to 10 or 12 hexes of the front line, or even shorter. Something more tactical, even if it cuts rail lines locally. I think that's OK.

But dropping that far back, I don't think is at all kosher.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

It exposes people who fail to make interconnects in their rail net.

Here's some historical rail marks.
18 July 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Porkhov
23 August 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Luga
29 September 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Staraya Russa

How many weeks before that do you put rail in these locations? I'm genuinely curious.
How much faster are you able to build the rail than was historically accomplished? Should that be nerfed? Should historical accomplishment be the defining limiting factor in what is possible in this game? I would think not.

Best fix would be no air drops until after March 1942.

But the Soviets made air drops in the first winter:

During the Soviet counter-offensive for the Defense of Moscow at Vyazma, 27th January 1942, the Soviet 4th Airborne Corps began a series of night drops of paratroopers in the German rear. Forty civilian and twenty-two military aircraft, escorted by limited numbers of fighters and ground attack aviation, supported the landings. From the beginning, the operation did not go well.

After, six nights, only 2,100 men from the 10,000-man airborne corps had been dropped in. Because of bad weather and the pilots' inexperience with night navigation, most of these troops landed twenty kilometers south of the intended drop zone. Plans for five to six sorties each night did not take into account adverse weather conditions, aircraft failures, or combat losses. Also, the failure to conceal the buildup of troops at the airborne fields led to the closing of one of them by German bombers. The remaining two fields provided only two to three sorties per night.

The paratroops that landed, however, did succeed in interdicting lines of communication in the German rear area for almost three weeks, in part because of their linkup with the 1st Guards Cavalry Corps on 6 February.

I'm all for addressing the efficacy (randomness in ability to hit the target hex, etc), but I think pulling the ability is harsh, and not supported by the historical record.

If German players can make faster, deeper panzer pushes than the Germans did historically, why should Soviets be limited to no airborne operations when they actually conducted them (however poorly)? Isn't the point of the game for both sides to ultimately do better than historical?

If the Germans were putting more effort into building a rail net and less effort into pushing every inch west that the game engine allows, they would to a large degree mitigate this problem (and a more western rail head would allow the game to more effectively demonstrate front line supply issues late in Barbarossa campaign. You can also cover important rail junctions and prevent drops (and partisan damage). So really, this can be addressed with game play instead of nerfing.

You take the risk such a strategy entails you live (or die) with it, imo.

IF wite worked like other games and was historical, all the rail lines would be getting worked on from start line east.

But because of a weakness in the rail/logistic system they give the German player 5. Sure historically stuff was cut, but the HOLE German army did not recieve supplys from just 5 railheads.

As we all know this has been alrdy talked about to no end and is going to be addressed and fixed.

2by3 sees the problem and is fixing it and will have a better product for everyone to play at some time in the near future.

But until then we can't let one side exploit the current system that we play under.

HQ build ups were way over powered and were nerfed "fixed" to be more relistic and now even I hardly use them.

I have no weakness on my logictic's system

I can't double up, so I am doing the very same thing everyone esle is.

I have no problem with para drops, if I can build them also and drop them hehehehe.

If I had paras and used them like this we be hearing the normal cring I am getting Peltonized help me!!!!!!!!.

Its clearly an exploit of the logistic system, which I am sure 2by3 did not expect.

Flaviusx I am fine with the 10ish hex limit from front, that seems historical.

I am sure there were para drops way behind the lines, but historically there were not just 5 rail lines working there were many times that. So supplies were not cut off to 300,000 men for 2 weeks because of one broken rail line.

It is still a little gamey, because I can't build para units. I can wait for War in Europe to make my mass para drops 500 miles behind enemy lines cutting of 1 million russians for 2 weeks [8D]


Pelton

[randallw]

What would happen, in real life, at such a drop attempt? More fighters showing up to intercept? Pilots unable to locate the proper hex?

To make a comparison to Western Allied para ops there was an attempt to drop a British battalion in Africa to support a 1942 operation, with the troops coming in from another continent. And yes it went balls up.

[Seminole]

IF wite worked like other games and was historical, all the rail lines would be getting worked on from start line east.

It can be, but it seems you're taking the HQs with subunit FBDs (that can fill in the critical interconnects) farther east too soon.
You didn't answer my question before, can you address this:

Here's some historical rail marks.
18 July 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Porkhov
23 August 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Luga
29 September 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Staraya Russa

How many weeks before that do you put rail in these locations? I'm genuinely curious.
How much faster are you able to build the rail than was historically accomplished?

I have no weakness on my logictic's system

It appears (the picture you provide is incomplete) that you're feeding the whole of AGS on one line.
You don't see that as a weakness?
You've created a long 'single point of failure' through Vinnitsa. Why is there no rail line through Tarnopol and Proskurov? Because you decided it was more important to build a rail line past Kharkov a month faster than the Germans got their first tanks that far east than create redundancy in your rail network. This allows you push supplies farther east than the Germans historically could, but not without risk from severe lack of redundancy.

I have no problem with para drops, if I can build them also and drop them hehehehe.

Is 7th Flieger Div and the Air Landing Division not airborne capable in the game?

I am sure there were para drops way behind the lines, but historically there were not just 5 rail lines working there were many times that.

Actually, the Russian rail network was quite primitive:

One of the first actions taken by the German Transportation Division to prepare itself for the upcoming war with the Soviet Union was to complete a preliminary analysis of the Soviet rail network. This effort highlighted the following - only four major east-west running trunk lines connected the western border regions of the Soviet Union (including the recently annexed regions of Poland and the Baltic States of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) with Soviet rear areas:

Niemen river to Leningrad (double track)
Bug river to Orsha to Moscow (double track)
Bug river to Kremenchug to the Donets basin (double track)
San river to Odessa (double track)

The four above named trunk-lines were intersected by only six major north-south running trunk lines:

Koeningsberg to Kremenchug (double track)
Riga to Orsha to Kharkov to the Donets basin (double track)
Odessa to Orsha to Leningrad (double track)
Sevastopol to Kharkov to Moscow to Archanglesk (double track)
Leningrad to Moscow to the Donets to the Caucasus (double track)
Leningrad to Moscow to the Caucasus (double track)

...

This rather sparse network was fed by numerous smaller, single track, feeder lines whose transport capacities were far from optimal. In fact, the majority of the Soviet rail line network was the same as it had been for the Czars armies 20 years earlier. In some regions of the Soviet Union, single track rail lines existed for no apparent reason.

[Aurelian]

Axis don't have paradop capability. Thank the Crete assualt for souring Hitler on it.

[Seminole]

What would happen, in real life, at such a drop attempt? More fighters showing up to intercept? Pilots unable to locate the proper hex?

I think that's the main way to address this. The farther you drop from the front lines, the more random the final drop zone.

I think the Li-2 has the range to drop paras 18 hexes from the airbase. Not sure about the TB-3-G2 or C-47.