Matrix Games Forums

So I'm doing the first baby steps trying to understand all the mechanics in this new game. Sicily is probably the perfect tutorial, here's the question:

If you throw all your air power against the ferries and ports in the Strait of Messina, will you be able to lock it down enough to trap the Germans there ?

IF you really want to shut down the ferry between Sicily and Italy in the Strait then move at least one Naval group into one of the ferry hexes. Note that your naval losses are going to be large - probably pushing back the second or third Med invasion timetable (and possibly limiting you to only a second Med invasion of any size). It will, however, seal the strait.

If you are more sane about it then use naval patrols to gain naval superiority over the hexes. Ground Attack missions can also target the Ferries and interdict the movement. Or use the naval patrols and do a follow up invasion up the Italian toe to really lock the Axis down supply wise. Be aware that Messina has great supply stocks and can last for a long time under siege before you start to see the Axis defenders degrade to reasonable defensive values.

I've placed Amph HQ units on the Messina ferry hexes in the Husky scenario and successfully blocked all crossings by Axis units, but I can't figure out how the Axis inflicts naval losses as the prior post suggests. I've tried air naval patrols, ground support and attack, all to no avail. What am I missing?

Probably because of the coastal fortifications located on both sides of the strait that were placed there for exactly that purpose. Also, the strait is choked with numerous Italian and German FlaK assets. Your naval and air forces are working in a hornets nest of activity.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Carterjon

I've placed Amph HQ units on the Messina ferry hexes in the Husky scenario and successfully blocked all crossings by Axis units, but I can't figure out how the Axis inflicts naval losses as the prior post suggests. I've tried air naval patrols, ground support and attack, all to no avail. What am I missing?

Thanks, el hefe, but either I'm not being clear in my question or in understanding your reply. My problem is exactly that I can't figure out how the Axis can inflict the sort of casualties they would have, or indeed any losses at all, on the Amph units blocking the straits. They just sit there unharmed and trap the Axis on the island.

ORIGINAL: Carterjon

Thanks, el hefe, but either I'm not being clear in my question or in understanding your reply. My problem is exactly that I can't figure out how the Axis can inflict the sort of casualties they would have, or indeed any losses at all, on the Amph units blocking the straits. They just sit there unharmed and trap the Axis on the island.

If I remember correctly, those TF's will take damage at sea, especially in a hex that has a high interdiction value that is not in your favor. It depends on how many air groups are based in the vicinity and what missions they have assigned. Check the interdiction values in the hex and the color of the water hex, because I've lost almost a whole division going thru high interdiction hexes that weren't mine.

Take a look at Chapter 16.6.2.2 Amphibious HQ at Sea Attrition and Damage to Amphibious HQs.

Your amphibious HQs will take damage by being adjacent to enemy coastal fortifications.

There are two level 3 fortifications adjacent to the Strait - Messina and Reggio Calabria. There are also 22 German-Italian Flak Battalions between the two locations as well.


Trey

ORIGINAL: Carterjon

Thanks, el hefe, but either I'm not being clear in my question or in understanding your reply. My problem is exactly that I can't figure out how the Axis can inflict the sort of casualties they would have, or indeed any losses at all, on the Amph units blocking the straits. They just sit there unharmed and trap the Axis on the island.

This gets a little tricky because ferry hexes are treated differently than sea hexes. In Sea hexes, you would use naval patrol directives to put interdiction into sea hexes and this will cause damage to the amphib and other shipping. In ferry hexes, you have to use a ground attack mission that targets ferry hexes. This will put interdiction values in the ferry hex which in turn will cause damage to the amphib HQs, etc. My guess is we should be doing something more to damage amphibs in ferry hexes that are adjacent to enemy forts. I'd be surprised if the AI will use ground attack to target the ferry hexes.

Are you saying when playing against Axis AI you can block the strait without risking any damage?

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

This gets a little tricky because ferry hexes are treated differently than sea hexes. In Sea hexes, you would use naval patrol directives to put interdiction into sea hexes and this will cause damage to the amphib and other shipping. In ferry hexes, you have to use a ground attack mission that targets ferry hexes. This will put interdiction values in the ferry hex which in turn will cause damage to the amphib HQs, etc. My guess is we should be doing something more to damage amphibs in ferry hexes that are adjacent to enemy forts. I'd be surprised if the AI will use ground attack to target the ferry hexes.

That's been my experience. Move a couple of the spare Amphs into the ferry hexes early on and you trap the Germans on Sicily. I've been to Messina and it gets awfully narrow in the straits there. Based on the accounts of the density of guns, mines, patrol boats, etc, it sounds like it would have been very bad news for surface ships to have intervened.

That is broken, the coastal guns should sink all those ships...

We agree re the coastal guns. The first patch will not be dividing the fort guns by 4 when going against ferry hexes, which will cause considerably more damage on the amphib HQs. We are also looking at how to get naval interdiction into ferry hexes, but that might not make the first patch.

Have subsequent patches allowed naval interdiction into the ferry hexes?

Iirc, ferries are interdicted with ground attacks.

It would be good to see the Amphib TF split into seperate Troop carrying & Gunfire Support TF's.

There is no way a commander would takes his precious LST, LCA etc into a defended strait like Messina but he may choose to take a BB/CA/DD based TF there.

If you get "lazy" with your Gunfire support you cant get your troops ashore in your Troop carrying TF's.

PS What anti ship guns were based at the Straits of Messina at this time??

The Straits are only 3km wide. It takes a Ferry less then an hour to cross. There was plenty of flak guns and two batteries of 17cm guns not in bunkers. (field positions) A total of around 500 guns.

The allies considered the straits one of the most heavily defended areas in Europe

The German operation was called Lehrgang.

I find it curious that over the last three days of the operation, the allies flew 550 sorties and sunk nothing.

realistically be very hard to close a ferry crossing that short.....at night time your talking 4 or so round trips alone.

Not to mention if the Germans used chemical units to smoke the straits....havent studied the campaign to that level of detail...but for a crossing that short smoke units would have an effect.

From what I read they had some difficulty at night moving stuff across, but during the day it was easy because of all the protection from the guns. At night, the allied bombers could drop random bits of fun on the port, and illumination was not wanted because it would also light up the boats.

Also interesting is the Italians and the Germans each had their own evacuation efforts.

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


The Straits are only 3km wide. It takes a Ferry less then an hour to cross. There was plenty of flak guns and two batteries of 17cm guns not in bunkers. (field positions) A total of around 500 guns.

The allies considered the straits one of the most heavily defended areas in Europe

The German operation was called Lehrgang.

I find it curious that over the last three days of the operation, the allies flew 550 sorties and sunk nothing.

2 Batteries of 170mm guns do not (should not) stop a Navy, I have seen reference to 9.4 inch (approx 230mm??) guns but it wasnt very clear. Unless the AA was 88mm or larger and had sights for surface action it wouldnt be much of a deterent.

I have seen reference to smoke affecting bombing.

Apparently a 6 kt current was also enough to dissuade an amphib landing.