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Bug - Air attacks consume all defender ammo
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:32 pm
by wbonx
AI does 2 air attacks on a large stack of units in my capital. Only few buggies and AMG have anti air capability. Nevertheless all units partecipate in the attack. Since around 15 tanks are present in the stack plus arties and anti tank, 15k plus of ammo are consumed. The round after almost all the units endup without ammo, i had 3/4k of stock.
I guess this is a bug, since tanks and anti tanks and all the units without AA capability aren't supposed to partecipate in the attack.
The units didn't have other battles against ground troops in the same round.
Re: Bug - Air attacks consume all defender ammo
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:56 am
by wbonx
Yes I was badly loosing ... still..
Airplane were not bombers... no damage to buildings.
Re: Bug - Air attacks consume all defender ammo
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:44 am
by Don_Kiyote
wbonx wrote: ↑Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:32 pm
AI does 2 air attacks... 15k plus of ammo are consumed.
This is more of a general issue than a bug. Ammo usage can be exceedingly dangerous in situations where it shouldn't be.
I didn't think tanks participated in repelling air attacks craft, though. That would be bad, and yes a bug.
For me, just having machine guns under air attack was enough to put paid to that position. Their fire was almost entirely ineffective, but the whole unit would start their turn nearly empty, solely because of the Air attack. And heaven forbid it should face a ground assault after and air raid. Doing a regular "Ranged Attack" with guns leads to a similar situation.
Heavy ammo usage is a great mechanic imo, but there seems to be some uncomfortable ramifications.
Having a huge differences between the ammo use of one troop type, say Guns @16 per-on-defense, and another, say Gas Carbine Infantry @0.1 per-on-defense, seems to lead to these issues as a matter of course. Ammo types are not separated, so one turn of one gun defense uses half again as much ammo as the entire rest of the infantry battalion needs to defend itself from a full ten-turn attack.
Sorry if I changed up your thread or misunderstood. Those 'Abrahams' are empty, but they just didn't get replenished. Your problems may be solely due to MG defensive fire.
Re: Bug - Air attacks consume all defender ammo
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:12 pm
by wbonx
Don_Kiyote wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:44 am
This is more of a general issue than a bug. Ammo usage can be exceedingly dangerous in situations where it shouldn't be.
I didn't think tanks participated in repelling air attacks craft, though. That would be bad, and yes a bug.
For me, just having machine guns under air attack was enough to put paid to that position. Their fire was almost entirely ineffective, but the whole unit would start their turn nearly empty, solely because of the Air attack. And heaven forbid it should face a ground assault after and air raid. Doing a regular "Ranged Attack" with guns leads to a similar situation.
Heavy ammo usage is a great mechanic imo, but there seems to be some uncomfortable ramifications.
Having a huge differences between the ammo use of one troop type, say Guns @16 per-on-defense, and another, say Gas Carbine Infantry @0.1 per-on-defense, seems to lead to these issues as a matter of course. Ammo types are not separated, so one turn of one gun defense uses half again as much ammo as the entire rest of the infantry battalion needs to defend itself from a full ten-turn attack.
Sorry if I changed up your thread or misunderstood. Those 'Abrahams' are empty, but they just didn't get replenished. Your problems may be solely due to MG defensive fire.
I guess you didn't understand the problem .... or some of the game mechanics.
The tanks partecipated in the attack, for sure, and this is a bug, or bad implementation.
They were full ammo and didn't need to receive any ammo that turn, nor they ever partecipated in another attack.
In general an AMG does't use much ammo (the amg in that case has the small gauss weapons, that use 0.3 if I remember (not sure about the name, consume), and there are few in the ex. Same for the buggies, same guns, few of them, ammo consumption is negligible.
As you see in the picture also the artillery was depleted and also the artilllery was full ammo the round before and didn't partecipate in any attack.
I had a buffer of few 1000s (~3k) ammo ... more then enough to replenish the AMG, buggy and any other unit in need.
To consume all the ammo in the units and all the ammo in the buffer, means all the units participated in the attack.
And my guess is that this is a bug, and a bad one, since artilleries and anti tank consume a lot of ammo and should not try shooting at an airplane.
You mention the same happens to artillery in ranged attack, I have never seen units trashing ammo in response to artillery ranged fire and I don't think this is the way the game works.
Re: Bug - Air attacks consume all defender ammo
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:36 am
by Vic
Hi,
It seems there is indeed cause to be upset about ammo consumption in these cases. I agree with the fact that it makes no sense for example for tanks to just shoot aimlessly into the sky with 0% of actually hitting an enemy aircraft. I am working on this for the next open beta subversion F.
Expect the following changes:
Defending non-air Subunit that did not did not do any meaningful attacks (att score<1) during a combat round is not charged combat fuel costs for that combat round.
Any non-air Subunit that did not do any meaningful attacks (or structural damage) during a combat round is not charged ammo for that combat round. (was already the case for air)
Any non-air Subunit that did not do any meaningful attacks against land subunits, but did do so against air subunits, and which is has much lower best air attack than best land attack (5 times lower or more) will be charged less ammo cost. This last rule will mostly apply to MG and similar models with really small AA cap.
best wishes,
Vic
Re: Bug - Air attacks consume all defender ammo
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 5:04 am
by Don_Kiyote
Thank you Vic, that looks good.
The artillery thing can definitely wait.
Re: Bug - Air attacks consume all defender ammo
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 3:05 pm
by solops
Vic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:36 am
Hi,
It seems there is indeed cause to be upset about ammo consumption in these cases. I agree with the fact that it makes no sense for example for tanks to just shoot aimlessly into the sky with 0% of actually hitting an enemy aircraft.
Not sure about this. You forget about the celebratory firing of weapons into the sky, a tradition around the world(s).