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Artillery losses
Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 8:48 am
by Yaab
I have written here
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2#p5155382
about artillery losses during retreats into hexes with no roads.
In such situations, game is punishing for weapon devices with load cost =>9, and there is some roll(?) for destruction of devices with load cost 5-8.
So I went to Tracker to see if Allies have any field artillery with load cost 5-8 (load cost 4 is the treshold for all Allied 80-82mm mortars). Other than 3.7 inch para and 3.7 inch jungle guns, the Allies have none.
The only Allied nation that has field arty devices in this load range are the Soviets, where rifle division TOEs have a combination of 120mm mortars and 76mm M-27 howitzers. They have those devices form the very beginning of the war. This means that Soviet rifle divisions forced to retreat to desert/rough/clear non-cultivated etc. hexes in Asia, still retain some punch in terms of artillery fire. The non-Soviet Allied nations don't have this flexibility and are solely reduced to 80-82mm in those situation, which reduces their range vis-a-vis Japanese artillery.
Re: Artillery losses
Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 11:44 am
by Yaab
Also, the junglified Indian/Brit/Australian TOEs are somewhat strange in this regard, as they include a big complement of 25 pounder guns (mostly 48 guns), 54 3" mortars and just eight 3.7" jungle guns. I know you cannot compare RL and the game, but in game terms, a retreat into a jungle hex with no roads should see you losing 25 pounders, and falling back on short-range 3" mortars.
Re: Artillery losses
Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 7:17 pm
by WEXF
Yaab wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 8:48 am
I have written here
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2#p5155382
about artillery losses during retreats into hexes with no roads.
In such situations, game is punishing for weapon devices with load coast =>9, and there is some roll(?) for destruction of devices with load cost 5-8.
So I went to Tracker to see if Allies have any field artillery with load coast 5-8 (load cost 4 is the treshold for all Allied 80-82mm mortars/4.2inch mortars). Other than 3.7 inch para and 3. 7inch jungle guns, the Allies have none.
The only Allied nation that has field arty devices in this load range are the Soviets, where rifle division TOEs have a combination of 120mm mortars and 76mm M-27 howitzers. They have those devices form the very beginning of the war. This means that Soviet rifle divisions forced to retreat to desert/rough/clear non-cultivated etc. hexes in Asia, still retain some punch in terms of artillery fire. The non-Soviet Allied nations don't have this flexibility and are solely reduced to 80-82mm/4.2inch mortars in those situation, which reduces their range vis-a-vis Japanese artillery.
There are many artillery weapons in the Allies TOE with load cost >8. The 105 howitzers and larger to name just a few.
- artloada.jpg (121.37 KiB) Viewed 280 times
Re: Artillery losses
Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:35 am
by Yaab
Here is a list from Tracker of all Allied guns with load cost of 5-8 points. I edited out all AT guns and self-propelled guns.
Notice the low build rates for the 3.7" guns, which is understandable, since those guns have very small complements in the Allied TOEs.
In game terms, the only properly "junglified" units are the Soviet rifle divisions. The 120mm mortar-76mm gun combo is unbeatable - excellent build rates, great range (76mm gun) and great effect (120mm mortar), and you can retain those tubes even if you are forced to retreat into non-road hexes.
Re: Artillery losses
Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:50 pm
by WEXF
Got it. I understand your point. It seems clear that the bigger guns can not survive a retreat into bad terrain.
WEXF
Re: Artillery losses
Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:55 pm
by Yaab
However, I have no data as to what happens in retreats to =>9 items like:
-self propelled artillery (army weapon device)
-tanks (AFV device)
-recon cars (AFV device)
Seems to me tracked vehicles (SP guns, tanks etc). shouldn't have any problems retreating to non-road hexes.
Re: Artillery losses
Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:09 pm
by RangerJoe
Yaab wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:55 pm
However, I have no data what happens in retreats to =>9 items like:
-self propelled artillery (army weapon device)
-tanks (AFV device)
-recon cars (AFV device)
Seems to me tracked vehicles (SP guns, tanks etc). shouldn't have any problems retreating to non-road hexes.
Only as long as they can move on their own but that may not be modeled. A lot of mechanized equipment was captured after a battle simply because it could not be recovered. I remember reading something that stated that it took a Tiger tank to recover a Tiger tank.
Re: Artillery losses
Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2025 8:02 pm
by Sardaukar
RangerJoe wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 2:09 pm
Yaab wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:55 pm
However, I have no data what happens in retreats to =>9 items like:
-self propelled artillery (army weapon device)
-tanks (AFV device)
-recon cars (AFV device)
Seems to me tracked vehicles (SP guns, tanks etc). shouldn't have any problems retreating to non-road hexes.
Only as long as they can move on their own but that may not be modeled. A lot of mechanized equipment was captured after a battle simply because it could not be recovered. I remember reading something that stated that it took a Tiger tank to recover a Tiger tank.
Using Tiger to recover another Tiger was specifically forbidden, but it did still happen. Usually it took 2-4 FAMO prime movers to get Tiger recovered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sd.Kfz._9 Has even a pics where 2 FAMOs tow Tiger.
Tiger I (57 tons combat weight) and Panther (45 tons) were really difficult to recover for Germans and massive strain to recovery vehicles.