Here we go again! tc464 (A) vs. Mike (J) - No tc464

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Good point about Ichang, Q-Ball.  I've already changed the invasion site to Altimonaon.

Makes sense, landing at Legaspi is a waste of time. A landing south of Manila isn't, however, because that should force the Allies to commit to Manila or Clark for a final defense, and IMO Clark is the better choice for the Allies.

Are you re-directing those 2 SNLF pointed at Legaspi to Ambon or Kendari turn 1? I would then land the 16th Division south of Manila, but that's just me.

I love the idea of Paratroopers, but I have trouble figuring out useful purposes for them in the game, because the most opposition they can handle is a base force. Dropping them on Port Blair before Singapore falls is a pretty good move, beyond that it's not easy to find a good use. I just used them to drop on Coxs Bazaar to conincide with a landing at Akyab, so that worked pretty well, but only because Cox Bazaar was empty.

There are alot of ways you can drop then use transports to get in follow-up troops and base forces, but the problem is always supply: I find you just can't keep an airbase supplied via air transport.

[erstad]

Question #1 for the masses: Try to hold Ichang or give it up? In our WitP PBEM, Ted pushed me out of Ichang early on. I'm still debating what to do. I think he is going to try and take it again. Assuming this, do I reinforce or withdraw (or do nothing). Also, should I suck supply there? I think there is something in the vicinity of 3k supply there.

I agree with Q-ball that Ichang does not have great intrinsic value. IMO, he question of how to treat Ichang is a neat little problem in game theory, because your best response depends on your opponent's plan.

If he's going for Ichang, then I think the best move is to heavily reinforce Ichang immediately. Ichang is a Clear terrain hex and if he makes an early grab for it a reinforced Ichang can generally retreat the however-many-Chinese-corps. After they are trashed, you can pull the reinforcements out as he won't have the moxie left to threaten Ichang. I suspect a lot of allied players will try an immediate attack - all those corps just sitting there, prepped for Ichang. But you need to go big, especially if you have no HRs against shock attacks in China, because there's a lot of chinese in the vicinity - you don't want to be the one retreated. And I would air bombard some of the stacks from the get-go to get their disruption up.

If he's not going for Ichang, then don't reinforce as there's no need.

What you don't want is (Allied ignores Ichang) and (Japanese heavily reinforce) because then your troops are out of the way until you figure out Ichang is safe. It's a week from Ichang to troops loaded on the RR.

Although if you can't read your opponent and don't want to roll the dice, you won't suffer much if you leave Ichang to whatever fate your opponent chooses. If you see him moving on Ichang that's a good time to head to Nanyang/Loyang/Chengchow as you can get there a lot faster than his troops moving on Ichang. And it's not like he is likely to threaten Hankow (Uh terrain + easily reinforced)

[Smeulders]

Ichang can be a good gambit for the Allied. I moved in the corps North of the city and in 2 shock attacks routed the Japanese defenders, that's a division out of the war for quite some time. If your Japan and see your opponent move on the city, either reinforce fast or retreat, because the starting forces around the city are hugely in favour of the Chinese.

[Mike Solli]

Guys, thanks for the insight on Ichang.  I'm still not sure what I'm going to do, but I think I'll most likely evacuate.  I'll wait a turn or two for Ted to make a move (which is what I expect him to do).  I think what clinched it is learning that Ichang is clear terrain (and it has no real intrinsic value.

A quick update.  We're on hold until the offical patch 2 is released.  Then, I'll save, end turn and send it off.  One thing I am going to do is change my air unit training.  Most of the units I have on training are on general training.  Apparently, that's not the best way to do things.  I'm going to change them tonight or tomorrow night.

Until the patch arrives, we wait. *Sigh*

[witpqs]

They're changing the monsoon season for Burma in the official patch 2 - not sure if updating the game in progress will pick that up.

[SqzMyLemon]

I'm the player Smeulders routed out of Ichang. Japan is too weak there at start, so in hindsight, if China makes a move for it early pull out. The second shock attack routed me because I was in move mode trying to get out, if I had stayed in combat mode I'd still have been forced out but not at the losses I sustained. I have an issue with how weak frontline Japanese forces are at the start of the game in China, it makes no sense to me that much of Japan's strength is located to the rear at start, garrison requirements not withstanding, I feel more troops should be located directly at the front, the Chinese have the tactical advantage of superiorty of numbers at a number of locations if they mass, and it takes the Japanese too long to move up rear units to counter. So my advice, pull out of Ichang, mass and then start offensive operations.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

They're changing the monsoon season for Burma in the official patch 2 - not sure if updating the game in progress will pick that up.

Yeah, I read that somewhere. If it works, great. But if not, I'm not redoing the first turn for monsoons. [:D]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'm the player Smeulders routed out of Ichang. Japan is too weak there at start, so in hindsight, if China makes a move for it early pull out. The second shock attack routed me because I was in move mode trying to get out, if I had stayed in combat mode I'd still have been forced out but not at the losses I sustained. I have an issue with how weak frontline Japanese forces are at the start of the game in China, it makes no sense to me that much of Japan's strength is located to the rear at start, garrison requirements not withstanding, I feel more troops should be located directly at the front, the Chinese have the tactical advantage of superiorty of numbers at a number of locations if they mass, and it takes the Japanese too long to move up rear units to counter. So my advice, pull out of Ichang, mass and then start offensive operations.

Yeah, Ted pummelled my Ichang forces in WitP right at the start. I'm going to do some recon of his forces in the area and if they show up as headed for Ichang, I'm heading for the hills. [:D]

[Mike Solli]

I can see why supply has to be shipped to China.  The whole of China/Manchuria/Korea produces only ~80k supply a month while Honshu produces ~570k a month.  That 80k is probably needed just to feed that massive army there.  I guess I'll need another TF or two to ship supply to China. [:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

Mike,

I also wanted to put in my 2 cents about the Musashi and Taiho question. I have to base mine on the historical outcome of Carriers over BB's. I feel the Taiho in the long run will be more valuable in defending the Empire. The numbers of instances where I see the Musashi making a huge difference strategically are minimal, the odd invasion that it can counter I don't see altering the strategic outcome, however, the damage the Taiho can achieve defensively combined with LBA over the long haul I think outweigh the advantages of another heavy BB. It would be nice though to be able to accelerate both ships.

[Mike Solli]

Good point.  I still haven't made a decision about them.  Fortunately, I can't do anything until I get the turn back from Ted, so I can still ponder.

[SqzMyLemon]

Mike,

I've been sending supply to China too, I want to make sure there is plenty there to replenish weakened LCU's, especially the survivors of the Ichang debacle! [:D] I've been sending to Shanghai, or directly up the river to the cities I think are called Wuchang and Haichow respectively, what ever those two are S.E. of Ichang, and see if that helps.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Question #1 for the masses:  Try to hold Ichang or give it up?  In our WitP PBEM, Ted pushed me out of Ichang early on.  I'm still debating what to do.  I think he is going to try and take it again.  Assuming this, do I reinforce or withdraw (or do nothing).  Also, should I suck supply there?  I think there is something in the vicinity of 3k supply there.

Question #2:  What do you guys think of an air assault of the Philippines (in addition to the normal sea invasion)?  I've done it in the past.  Not sure if I'd gain anything by doing that.  If I do it on Turn 1, I can be sure there will be little or no enemy fighter opposition.

Ichang isn't very useful in the end. Giving it up wouldn't bother me.

Para Drop on the PI? I think it would be most useful to drop on Altimonaon or one of those bases so you can ride the rails up from Legaspi, if you land there. But I wouldn't land there; I would prefer to land right on Altimonaon anyway and forget a landing at Legaspi.

I split the 2 para SNLFs in Taiwan to air assault three N. Luzon bases on turn 1 in my 2 PBEMs.

Aparri and two others nearby (no map-at work). I wanted to do this to decrease early fatigue / disruption to the amphibious landing forces due Aparri et al. and allow THEM to prep deeper into Luzon. I think this has the added benefit of turning out allied lights early. Without recon, they don't have a picture as to the IJA effort or size of force in N. Luzon if you feed in your main assault forces after the base has already changed hands.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I split the 2 para SNLFs in Taiwan to air assault three N. Luzon bases on turn 1 in my 2 PBEMs.

Aparri and two others nearby (no map-at work). I wanted to do this to decrease early fatigue / disruption to the amphibious landing forces due Aparri et al. and allow THEM to prep deeper into Luzon. I think this has the added benefit of turning out allied lights early. Without recon, they don't have a picture as to the IJA effort or size of force in N. Luzon if you feed in your main assault forces after the base has already changed hands.

Very nice idea Chickenboy. I like your comments on eliminating Allied intel.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Mike,

I've been sending supply to China too, I want to make sure there is plenty there to replenish weakened LCU's, especially the survivors of the Ichang debacle! [:D] I've been sending to Shanghai, or directly up the river to the cities I think are called Wuchang and Haichow respectively, what ever those two are S.E. of Ichang, and see if that helps.

I've read somewhere else about shipping supply up that river. I haven't thought of doing that (probably because of so many years playing WitP). [:D] Gotta try and get this old brain to remember to do that. [:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Mike,

I've been sending supply to China too, I want to make sure there is plenty there to replenish weakened LCU's, especially the survivors of the Ichang debacle! [:D] I've been sending to Shanghai, or directly up the river to the cities I think are called Wuchang and Haichow respectively, what ever those two are S.E. of Ichang, and see if that helps.

I've read somewhere else about shipping supply up that river. I haven't thought of doing that (probably because of so many years playing WitP). [:D] Gotta try and get this old brain to remember to do that. [:D]

I don't know if it's necessary or not, but I've been using xAKLs to haul resources from cities up this river where they pool. The larger xAKs might not make it, but the smaller draft vessels will.

[Mike Solli]

Well, the turn is finally off to my esteemed opponent. I expect to run it later today. [:D]

[Chickenboy]

Mike,

Not to rain on your parade or anything, but are there any acknowledged OOB issues that will require a de novo restart (including the entirety of IJ turn one) or are you totally good to go with patch II on board?

[Mike Solli]

I'm fine with it. Whatever doesn't work we'll live without. If there is anything, I don't think it'll be significant. I'm just happy to be done with the turn and have it off. Now I can't wait to get it back so I can run it. [:D]

[Mike Solli]

Well, it was a wonderful PH attack. I don't like to post the replay, but here's a snippet of it:

Midget Sub attack inside harbor of Pearl Harbor!!!

Japanese Ships
SSX Ha-19, hits 6, heavy damage

Allied Ships
PC Taney
BB California, Torpedo hits 1 Banzai!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 6 destroyed, 58 damaged
D3A1 Val: 6 destroyed, 39 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Warhawk: 3 destroyed on ground
B-18A Bolo: 3 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground
P-36A Mohawk: 2 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground
PBY-5 Catalina: 6 destroyed on ground
SBD-1 Dauntless: 2 destroyed on ground
A-20A Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk - Magazine explosion!
DD Case, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Jarvis, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
DM Preble
DD Reid, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AV Wright, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires Massive explosive damage!
DD Bagley, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
SS Tautog, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AE Mauna Loa, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA San Francisco, Torpedo hits 1
DD Schley, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Allen, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AV Curtiss, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

I'll give more analysis tomorrow. One little picture to tide you over. How's this for rush hour?!