ASW Tactics & Logistics

[Lowpe]

How do you measure four hexes?

[Mike Solli]

I'd say the longer one because you can search 0 hexes out. When you search 1 hex, you can see the arc goes out to the adjacent hexes.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Lowpe, are you sure that it has to have search aircraft up? I recall when this info came up thinking it odd that "any type of mission" was all it took for the four-hex search effect - i.e. I thought it would be more logical to have search aircraft only create the effect. I can't find the original discussion.

No, I am not certain. I know Alfred has said ASW missions get the free circle search, but I think from anecdotal evidence I don't think they do or that it is 2 hexes since ASW search missions are halved (that has never been mentioned by developers according to Alfred). I know I have flown ASW missions near heavy enemy CAP presence and they did not get shredded, and did if their ASW range included the enemy base. But that is anecdotal, so take it with a heavy grain of salt.

I do remember two salient points about naval search in this "free circle." 1. There is a penalty to aircraft spotting naval vessels in an undefined search arc. 2. The search arcs show what is planned...but not what actually happens during the turn. Weather, morale, leadership, ad infinitum... all play roles in whether each individual search arc gets searched. A squadron could actually search the first arc, miss the 2nd arc, and search the 3rd arc of a three arc search pattern. How does that relate to the free circle...well only 2/3rds of the planes actually flew and performed the search.

I will load up a game, and snap some screenies to show some other odd things about naval search arcs if you are interested.

[tarkalak]

If I recall correctly the manual said that no matter the direction of search (either set or random) each plane on Naval Search will always search all hexes withing range threearound its base.

That might have been changed to 4 later on though.

[rustysi]

If I recall correctly the manual said that no matter the direction of search (either set or random) each plane on Naval Search will always search all hexes withing range threearound its base.

Not saying its not there, but I just don't recall seeing it. Please state where such is said.

[Lowpe]

The manual states that 5 hexes is an increased detection zone, because of the many planes flying thru that area to and from the runway.

[montesaurus]

Looking over the ASW forum, and just wondering, is 1000 feet considered the best altitude for your ASW planes to operate at to be most effective?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: montesaurus

Looking over the ASW forum, and just wondering, is 1000 feet considered the best altitude for your ASW planes to operate at to be most effective?

I believe that 1000 feet will yield the greatest number of attacks on submarines spotted. It *also* yields higher fatigue and OPS-related damage, so many opt for 2,000 feet or higher to reduce the fatigue.

[montesaurus]

Thanks for the information!

[montesaurus]

Thanks for the information, I appreciate it!

[spence]

What planes can fly ASW at night BBfanboy? I am not aware of any.

Don't seem to be any Allied planes that can fly the ASW mission at night either (radar or no radar).

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: spence

What planes can fly ASW at night BBfanboy? I am not aware of any.

Don't seem to be any Allied planes that can fly the ASW mission at night either (radar or no radar).

Well it should be modeled later in the game when air radar was available. (I don't know whether it is or not). The British conducted a vigorous night ASW campaign over the Bay of Biscay to interdict U-Boats leaving ports there or returning to them. Radar got the detection and the Leigh Light searchlight enabled them to spot and attack. The Leigh Light used a welding rod arc to create a brilliant beam that illuminated over a long range. I think the Sunderland patrol aircraft and probably Liberator bombers assigned to Coastal Command used it.

But the Pacific was different in that IJN subs were not using ports easily covered by Allied ASW aircraft at night, so it might have been left out of the game.

[spence]

Japanese submarines sit un-attacked for days in Allied ports. Why exactly did Allied radar work in the Bay of Biscay but it didn't work in Allied port hexes in the Pacific? In late 1943 in a present PBEM there is a Japanese submarine sitting spotted in the port Madang. Mere destroyers on ASW don't seem to be able to find them. Just curious as to why radar equipped a/c at the airbase in that hex don't even get the option to conduct ASW OPs at night?

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

But the Pacific was different in that IJN subs were not using ports easily covered by Allied ASW aircraft at night, so it might have been left out of the game.

Yep, the same sort of specialized ASW night ops implemented in a limited region directly south of the British Isles (with all the logistical benefits that implies) probably wouldn't translate to the Japanese-controlled Pacific. The map below highlights the scale of the problem:

[spence]

Yep, the same sort of specialized ASW night ops implemented in a limited region directly south of the British Isles (with all the logistical benefits that implies) probably wouldn't translate to the Japanese-controlled Pacific. The map below highlights the scale of the problem:

Japanese submarines sit un-attacked for days in Allied ports. Why exactly did Allied radar work in the Bay of Biscay but it didn't work in Allied port hexes in the Pacific? In late 1943 in a present PBEM there is a Japanese submarine sitting spotted in the port Madang. Mere destroyers on ASW don't seem to be able to find them. Just curious as to why radar equipped a/c at the airbase in that hex don't even get the option to conduct ASW OPs at night?

In this case mentioned directly above your point is totally irrelevant. Although the Bay of Biscay may have constrained German submarines to specific transit areas there is no strange electro-magnetic anomaly covering the whole Pacific including Allied airbases and ports that allows Japanese submarines to exist unmolested in such hexes for turn after turn.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: spence

Yep, the same sort of specialized ASW night ops implemented in a limited region directly south of the British Isles (with all the logistical benefits that implies) probably wouldn't translate to the Japanese-controlled Pacific. The map below highlights the scale of the problem:

Japanese submarines sit un-attacked for days in Allied ports. Why exactly did Allied radar work in the Bay of Biscay but it didn't work in Allied port hexes in the Pacific? In late 1943 in a present PBEM there is a Japanese submarine sitting spotted in the port Madang. Mere destroyers on ASW don't seem to be able to find them. Just curious as to why radar equipped a/c at the airbase in that hex don't even get the option to conduct ASW OPs at night?

In this case mentioned directly above your point is totally irrelevant. Although the Bay of Biscay may have constrained German submarines to specific transit areas there is no strange electro-magnetic anomaly covering the whole Pacific including Allied airbases and ports that allows Japanese submarines to exist unmolested in such hexes for turn after turn.

No point railing at what the developers chose to leave out of the game - what we have is it. If you can't do an ASW mission, set a search mission with range of 0 or 1, altitude 1000 feet. You might get a contact and attack.

Another thing about ASW in this game - if you put too many assets in the same hex the game engine seems unable to sort out which group gets contact and attack rolls. If I have more than two ASW TFs in the hex I almost never get an attack - night or day. I just went through two months of trying to hit the subs off PH, with all the bomber squadrons and patrol squadrons participating, plus carrier DB and TB squadrons. Hardly ever got a solid detection and attack even though ASW skills were working up into the 50 point category (squadrons trained while doing ASW and search). I began standing down squadrons and sending some of my DDs away on other mission or for upgrades/conversions and suddenly one of my Cats got an attack on a sub and reported a hit on a sub. Sinking sounds were heard at the end of the phase during the "Ships conduct repairs" step. There were no other enemy ships in danger of sinking at the time.

[jdsrae]

That could just mean that ASW groups need >50 ASW skill and probably experience before they stop seeing whales and start realising they they’re enemy subs.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: spence


In this case mentioned directly above your point is totally irrelevant. Although the Bay of Biscay may have constrained German submarines to specific transit areas there is no strange electro-magnetic anomaly covering the whole Pacific including Allied airbases and ports that allows Japanese submarines to exist unmolested in such hexes for turn after turn.

The point of the map is to highlight a possible rationale behind the devs leaving "Night Air ASW" capability out of the code. An Allied strategy employed solely in the limited confines of the Bay of Biscay is completely irrelevant in the grand scope of the Pacific theatre, and adding that ability would have resulted in far worse anomalies than the one you are exercised about.

Besides, the devs did address such situations. Park a sub in one place and it's detection levels will rise rapidly, and there IS code which makes "known subs" less effective.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

That could just mean that ASW groups need >50 ASW skill and probably experience before they stop seeing whales and start realising they they’re enemy subs.

Absolutely. I had multiple ASW TFs patrolling around Pearl, and there might have been one successful attack in 6 months. By contrast, if you get your Air ASW guys trained up to 60+ in both experience AND ASW, they will find nearby subs almost every turn and report hits every few turns. Case in point, I have a size 18 Wirraway squadron based in Sydney, and they spot 1-2 subs almost every turn. Every pilot has experience of 60+ and 2/3 have ASW skills of 70 (all but one are 65+).

[AleRonin]

How can I increase the ship experience in ASW role?
Also there is something in the game that show me when the experience grow? Like the green value in the pilot skill.