Balance is Good

[AlvaroSousa]

Special units like paras are a huge expenditure on resources for a player.

Take a small corp compared to a paratrooper in 1941.

German 1940
Small Corps - PP: 132, CV:8
Paratrooper - PP: 198, CV:7 + air transport PP:120 = 328

It costs 2.5x more to put on the map and there is a chance it gets shot down.

Sure players can use it for sneaky things but at what expense?
Say you buy 6 para troopers for Sealion taking out London and getting a main port.
That is 15 small corps OR 10 large ones.

Unescorted paras get shot out of the sky. Even escorted ones can have the transport destroyed and the unit fail on the drop.

[sveint]

Alvaro, please, most of my opponents can no longer take France in 1940.
The garrison change plus the ability for the Allies to maintain air superiority (outnumbering the Germans in fighters) has made the attack on France a real slog.
Maybe start France with less fighters? Take away a few starting UK units?

[generalfdog]

most of your opponents can't do anything because you kick their a**! lol

[redrum68]

Alvaro, please, most of my opponents can no longer take France in 1940.
The garrison change plus the ability for the Allies to maintain air superiority (outnumbering the Germans in fighters) has made the attack on France a real slog.
Maybe start France with less fighters? Take away a few starting UK units?

+1. I've been trying to highlight this for a while now but haven't had any luck. Best option right now is to just house rule to limit the number of UK units in France.

[stjeand]

Just have to be really careful...

IF we weaken the UK to much Germany will invade.
I can get 3 to 4 corps in the UK in one turn along with paratroopers, and ports are simple to take now with airpower.
Plymouth is unprotectable.

I put an armor with AntiTank there and Germany smashes it even with heavy UK air.


NOW perhaps the UK gets units on specific dates to retrieve the units being lost.

Add to this a required garrison in the UK...BUT if the UK just built say 15 infantry corps...how do you force garrisons on that?

[Lascar]

With the numerous changes to the combat results (few overruns, more retreats etc.) since the addition of the new garrison rules, the best solution is to eliminate the beefed upped garrisons or at least reduce it by half. If the Soviets build 60 plus large corps and invest in a larger and upgraded Red Air Force they can defeat Barbarossa. They just deploy three hex deep lines of garrisoned corps and the Germans cannot breakthrough. Large scale encirclement are very unlikely, so they end up chasing retreating Soviet corps exhausting their effectiveness and burning up massive amounts of fuel.

The beefed up garrisons are the real problem for the imbalance in France and Russia.

[sveint]

IF we weaken the UK to much Germany will invade.

There's always the option to weaken France a bit. I'm not a game designer, but this might be the best option (even if perhaps not historical).
At the very least remove one French air superiority unit. Maybe one less infantry corps at start.

[Nirosi]

Maybe one less infantry corps at start.

Or maybe a bigger requirement of garrison in the Alps? 60+ steps instead of 3 units (which are usually HQs or divisions) plus maybe a unit in Marseille. This means a garrison going from 30 steps total to 70 : the equivalent of more than a corps not available North (not at the start of the invasion anyway) . If 60 steps + unit in Marseille is not enough, it can be adjusted. But it will have a similar effect while still keep an historical OOB for France.

[redrum68]

IF we weaken the UK to much Germany will invade.

There's always the option to weaken France a bit. I'm not a game designer, but this might be the best option (even if perhaps not historical).
At the very least remove one French air superiority unit. Maybe one less infantry corps at start.

Agree. I suggested decreasing France starting land/air morale from 40 to 35. I think the best option is weakening both France and UK a bit early but make sure UK is strong enough in late 1940 and 1941 to prevent easy Sea Lion.

[Lascar]

IF we weaken the UK to much Germany will invade.

There's always the option to weaken France a bit. I'm not a game designer, but this might be the best option (even if perhaps not historical).
At the very least remove one French air superiority unit. Maybe one less infantry corps at start.

Agree. I suggested decreasing France starting land/air morale from 40 to 35. I think the best option is weakening both France and UK a bit early but make sure UK is strong enough in late 1940 and 1941 to prevent easy Sea Lion.

That is very unhistorical, the French army was not that qualitatively inferior compared to the Italians 45 or the Germans 70. That would make them one of the lowest performing national armies in the game.

The problem is with the garrisons that give the defender too much power relative to the attacker. That was done primarily to prevent the Germans from walking over the Soviets in 1941. That is no longer needed because easy unit destruction of ungarrisoned units is no longer the problem with the reduction of the occurrence of overruns. The combination of both these factors results in the exploit of building large number of weak infantry (Soviets especially) that when entrenched creates a WWI effect of high attrition combat with low probability of breakthroughs by armor/mech.

[ncc1701e]

The problem is UK not France. Try to stop the Germans with French only, you can’t.

For me, such as USSR and USA, the solution is to reduce based UK experience for land and air units. Only by fighting and defeats, the based UK land experience will grow from 45% to 50%. Only by fighting and defeats, the based UK air experience will grow from 40% to 50%.

French air experience is also at 50%. May be reduce it to 40% like their land units.

Like this, we still have great air battles in France slowly turning to German advantage.

[AlvaroSousa]

Alvaro, please, most of my opponents can no longer take France in 1940.
The garrison change plus the ability for the Allies to maintain air superiority (outnumbering the Germans in fighters) has made the attack on France a real slog.
Maybe start France with less fighters? Take away a few starting UK units?

How are they making more aircraft? They can't stuff the mainland and make more aircraft to outnumber the Germans at the same time. They don't have the PPs.

If you want to send me a hotseat game on the saved turn of may 1st 1940 so I can see what you are doing to stuff the Germans that would be the best help.

Also detail what the Germans are doing. I go after UK convoys from the start.
You can also take out Belgium and Netherlands in 1 shot.

[ncc1701e]

French have three fighters units at start, 50% experience. With French labs amount, they can all go to Interceptors 1940 by May 1940.

UK have three fighters units at start, 50% experience. The one in Egypt can go back in France by May 1940. This is not complicated to buy one more UK fighters unit by May 1940.

With UK labs amount, they can all go to Interceptors 1941 by May 1940.

This is 7 fighters units against 4 to 5 German fighters units.

This, in addition to, one UK Tank corps, one French Tank corps, one UK mechanized corps and eight UK full infantry units all in France.

Germans are so crippled even if they win after this that Yugoslavia is under rain in April 1941 (historical dates by the way) and there is no more desert war, no more Greece.

Like the Japanese, put some German air superiority units at 70% experience in the Deployment queue. Put all German air units at 70% experience on the map at start in September 1939 instead of only two.

[redrum68]

How are they making more aircraft? They can't stuff the mainland and make more aircraft to outnumber the Germans at the same time. They don't have the PPs.

If you want to send me a hotseat game on the saved turn of may 1st 1940 so I can see what you are doing to stuff the Germans that would be the best help.

Also detail what the Germans are doing. I go after UK convoys from the start.
You can also take out Belgium and Netherlands in 1 shot.

I can create some hotseat games if that will help. But here are screenshots from AARs that show 1. Max BEF ground and 2. Balanced BEF air/ground. One thing to note is a number of the BEF units will trickle into France during May as that's when the Germans are tied up taking Belgium and the initial French units. So really it matter what UK can get to France by early June as that is when they start most of the fighting. Let me know if you want me to create a hotseat of either of these approaches.

Max BEF Ground: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p4932736

Balanced BEF Air/Ground: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 4#p4954514

[stjeand]

What I normally do and this is NOT always...

UK 1 fighter build, I have done 2 before but that is just devastating to the Germans. They can't even fly.
France 1 fighter build.

I don't build always build French armor...just 2 infantry to garrison most of the time because you need blockers.

As Germany you can have 1 more fighter in time for the war and at best one on the way.

So totals...

UK 4 air, 3 interceptor and 1 escort...interceptors will be 41 for sure...escort I often change to interceptor but could be a 40 escort.
France, 4 fighters, all 40 interceptor

That is 8 fighters for the Allies

Germany starts with 4...high experience...but just 4. AT best they can have 1 showing up as they start to invade France. 0 when they hit the Netherlands and Belgium. Those attacks rarely result in losses BUT they do result in wear down of the Fighters.

NOW the French put all their fighters on intercept while the UK sits back..
French fighters get mauled but damage and wear down the German.

Next turn all the UK fighters go on intercept while the French repair...they can be left on intercept if you want...sometimes I leave 1 or 2 just to catch lonely bombers...though normally take more losses.


The issue that occurs is the German fighters can't keep up...After round 2 they are worn and pretty beat down...probably around 12 or so strength...Add to that now there might be pretty fresh French air to hit them again.


German air experience just starts to tank...while Allied just goes up.

Against a highly experience player normally they lost 120 to 150 air...
Against less experience I have taken out as many as 300 Axis air...IF I go 2 UK fighters.

The UK has enough to cover all their ports with corps...a mix of large and small.
Germany can't invade until they take Calais if I remember...well they can but not really take a port.



I can prevent about 75% of the players from taking France...

I do NOT max BEF anymore...due to it making the game boring for 1...and 2 the UK can be invaded pretty quickly so I am cautious.

I do NOT touch Africa...that always ends in disaster for me.


Not sure of the "fix"...weakening the UK more means German invasion for sure.
Weakening France could mean Yugoslavia gets invaded in July which is BAD for the Allies.

[ncc1701e]

Same game experience here. Use the French to lower the effectiveness of the Germans. And then, bing, use all your rested UK fighters at 100% effectiveness.

Same tactic to use for land units of course. The gamey ant tactic of using a wall of French garrison with +2 antitank to reduce the German Tank corps. And, then, you attack with UK corps at 100% effectiveness.

The solution is in the UK experience, lower it at start like USSR. Both for air and land units.

And, just to remind, all newly built German air units are coming at 50% experience.

[Lascar]

Same game experience here. Use the French to lower the effectiveness of the Germans. And then, bing, use all your rested UK fighters at 100% effectiveness.

Same tactic to use for land units of course. The gamey ant tactic of using a wall of French garrison with +2 antitank to reduce the German Tank corps. And, then, you attack with UK corps at 100% effectiveness.

The solution is in the UK experience, lower it at start like USSR. Both for air and land units.

And, just to remind, all newly built German air units are coming at 50% experience.

That is not the the complete solution there is still the problem of the wall of garrisoned units with +2 antitank, which is a real problem in Russia.

The Russian can build masses of 20/30 percent large corps and to an extent that they have a front line 3 hexes deep of entrenched garrisoned corps. The panzer/mech units are exhausted without breaking through and the retreating corps can not be destroyed without pursuing and repeatably attacking them.The Axis fuel reserves are being severely depleted by doing so. This is what Chinchin did in a recent game as the Soviets.

[ncc1701e]

Garrisons too powerful? There was an idea to introduce a combined arm bonus that was never implemented. Basically, you have one or several tanks or mechanized corps, you have one or several infantry corps, you have an active ground support, bing, you get a bonus.

But it must be at least one tank/mechanized, one infantry and one ground support. Like this, less concentration of armor all together.

And for me the bonus is a 25% chance of retreat of the defending units. If an unit is with infiltrator specialty, this is 25+5%=30% chance.

But, player can have only one combined arm bonus per HQ per turn. The activation could be done by using the button on the HQ that gives supply trucks. I am pretty sure nobody is using this button contrary to the two other buttons that are useful at least to me.

Plenty of ideas…

[Nirosi]

Basically, you have one or several tanks or mechanized corps, you have one or several infantry corps, you have an active ground support, bing, you get a bonus.

But, player can have only one combined arm bonus per HQ per turn.

I like that... Not sure if it would be help enough against the big BEF however. But a very nice idea....

[generalfdog]

Somebody needs to show me this big BEF problem I've yet to see it. not saying its not a thing just yet to see it. Any volunteers to school me?