MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR)

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: composer99

As far as US entry goes, I am torn between suggesting Freeze Japanese Assets with a view to boosting tension (because the US needs tension in the Ja pool) or to avoid tension to give the US a chance to get the oil embargo off (given that the Japanese army is still deep within China, this could hamstring Japanese oil-dependent operations).

The answer to this question, oddly enough, is to boost tensions . . . due to developments in the Middle-East. Iraq is going to become Italian very soon (don't think there's any easy was to stop it now, and maybe not even a hard way), and if Japan can get the convoys in place, Italy could always lend an Oil Point or two to Japan once the embargo begins. It might make things harder on Italy for the moment, but it might be just enough to get the Japanese into the NEI when that time comes.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: composer99

It's the end of Jul/Aug 1940. Germany has 1 AMPH, 1 TRS, and 1 ATR (as well as a fair few SCS for division invasions) to attempt a Sealion. Because of the lead time to build TRS and AMPH (6 and 8 turns, respectively, translated into 12 and 16 months), there will be no opportunity for a Sealion IMO in summer 1941, especially if (a) the CW builds a few more corps (which we know it will) and (b) the US gets in.

Also, if I were the USSR in this situation and saw a '41 Sealion coming, I would seriously consider trying to break the pact offensively and go to war with Germany myself.

As far as US entry goes, I am torn between suggesting Freeze Japanese Assets with a view to boosting tension (because the US needs tension in the Ja pool) or to avoid tension to give the US a chance to get the oil embargo off (given that the Japanese army is still deep within China, this could hamstring Japanese oil-dependent operations).

Sigh, remembering build times is always difficult.[:(]

I do hope that the US has started all its TRS and AMPH units. The Marines will be needed but they take relatively less time in production (says he without looking it up[:D]). Without sea lift the massive US build up will just sit in America doing nothing.

Oddly enough, my choice to build a MAR for the USA a few turns ago was one of the things that generated some slight criticism. [:)] It's actually scheduled to show up at the start of S/O '40. The USA at this moment has an AMPH in the Construction Pool, another completing its first cycle in J/F '40, 1 x AMPH and 5 x TRS in the Force Pool. The reason I haven't managed to build out the pools yet is that I didn't scrap any of the 3 range TRS to start the game (based on earlier comments from either this thread or the development forum -- can't remember which right now). And, of course, there are the 4 TRS that the USA starts with, so by mid-summer 1941, I should easily have at least 5 TRS and an AMPH to start with, plus I intned to build the next MAR as soon as I can, as well as all MAR Divisions.

The CW also has a TRS in the Construction Pool to finish with its BP this turn.

So if you have 6 sea lift units for the US, what 3 air and land units are you going to send to Europe and which 3 out into the Pacific? There will only be one trip for each TRS/AMPH per turn unless you dedicate an HQ to reorganize them during a turn. Even then you need to hope that the turn doesn't end before they can make the second round trip.

The other 6 sea lift units need to be built ASAP. You know, there might be losses when they start sailing around when the US is at war with all the Axis major powers. And if you expect to actually invade somewhere, the units doing the invading will not be bringing reinforcements across.

In both theaters of the war you will want to have strong land and air units: fighters and naval air for sea operations and fighters and bombers for land operations. The strategic bombers can rebase to the United Kingdom on their own, but all the other units will be looking for a boat to ride over on.

[Red Prince]

So if you have 6 sea lift units for the US, what 3 air and land units are you going to send to Europe and which 3 out into the Pacific? There will only be one trip for each TRS/AMPH per turn unless you dedicate an HQ to reorganize them during a turn. Even then you need to hope that the turn doesn't end before they can make the second round trip.

The other 6 sea lift units need to be built ASAP. You know, there might be losses when they start sailing around when the US is at war with all the Axis major powers. And if you expect to actually invade somewhere, the units doing the invading will not be bringing reinforcements across.

In both theaters of the war you will want to have strong land and air units: fighters and naval air for sea operations and fighters and bombers for land operations. The strategic bombers can rebase to the United Kingdom on their own, but all the other units will be looking for a boat to ride over on.

I'll try to answer your questions first, and that might create another "You did what!!!"

I already have 2 GARR in Dutch Harbor, a GARR and INF in Honolulu, with 2 NAV and the 2 wimpy FTRs I started with in the Pacific region. Using extended range, I managed to get a LND to Iceland by way of Greenland. At the moment, I have a some land units, mostly the starting ART divisions, but also 2 INF divisions and both starting HQ units on the East Coast, but can get any/all of them back to the West Coast before they are needed there. Eisenhower is in production, so I'll transfer one of those HQs back for certain. The MAR will almost certainly be a West Coast reinforcement.
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And now . . .

I don't mean to pick on you, Steve, but it's this kind of thinking that gets on my nerves a little. Only a year into the game the US may be in good position to prepare for war, but just because the USA can DOW earlier than usual does not mean that it has had the time to prepare for it, does it? The Gear Up didn't happen until M/A '40, so there were 3 turns at 11 BP, 1 turn at 21 BP, and 1 turn at 20 BP before now. That's only 74 BP for the first 5 turns.

I was told, quite clearly, that I needed to build a land unit or two per turn from the start -- even with the USA -- so there is a minimum of 3 BP dedicated to that. I was told that I needed to build out my USA CV fleet as soon as they become available, which means I also needed to build the CVP and Pilots that would go with them soon after that. Now I'm told that I should also have focused on building out my sealift. This begins the circle, though:

Without sealift, the land units can't go anywhere. Without land units, what good is the sealift?

Again, I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong about this, because the USA absolutely wants to have all of these units on the map when it goes to war . . . but that doesn't usually happen until late 1941, which gives the USA player 3-4 more turns (~120 more BP) to work with than I'm expecting to get (assuming an early to mid-1941 entry).

So, the real question might have to be: just because the USA can enter the war early, should it? or is the threat enough to strike fear into the heart of Japan?

Perhaps I'm not terrific at planning 3-4 turns ahead, but with a game that is advancing "faster than average", I feel that the expectations (and suggestions/demands) are being made based on the typical point in the game that these events occur, rather than when they are actually happening.
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I will pre-apologize for any hard feelings this post generates. Maybe it's just a newbie thing, but maybe I do have a point?

[Red Prince]

Wanted to complete the Freezing of Japanese Assets, so I did. The rest of the End of Turn stuff will have to wait until tomorrow -- after I take another "nap" So, there's some good news and some bad news.

The good news: Japan now has enough tension for War Appropriations, as soon as that becomes available.

The bad news: the chit that got moved from Entry to Tension was the '5' chit.

This has a serious impact on the "China situation" as it relates to a possible surrender, but I don't know what that impact is, and welcome all thoughts. I can see potential benefits both ways, but can't figure out which way to go is the better choice.

[Orm]

So, the real question might have to be: just because the USA can enter the war early, should it? or is the threat enough to strike fear into the heart of Japan?

USA should always enter the war as soon as possible.

[BallyJ]

So, the real question might have to be: just because the USA can enter the war early, should it? or is the threat enough to strike fear into the heart of Japan?

Bring in the jolly green giant ASAP.
The axis has had its turn.
1 Pass war aprop.
2 DOW Japan
3 DOW Germany
4 50 BPs a turn builds up right quick!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Red Prince]

Just making sure I understand:

Doesn't matter if the USA can actually do anything actively . . . the DOWs are for the BP primarily. I can live with that, easily [:)] but was under the impression that the Surprise impulse should not be wasted by anyone.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

So, the real question might have to be: just because the USA can enter the war early, should it? or is the threat enough to strike fear into the heart of Japan?

USA should always enter the war as soon as possible.

Warspite1

Absa - flippin - lutely!! That fact hasn't changed from the 5th Edition.

[Klydon]

Part of the thing I can see with bringing the US in early is not only the BP increase in production, but they also avoid a surprise strike from the Japanese against their fleet.

From what it looks like, a 41 campaign against Russia is likely to take place. There will likely be a German force coming from the south as well for extra fun and games. Given the situation in China, Russia can likely expect an attack in the FE as well. With the FE stripped of units and everything else going on, I am guessing Russian will "write off" the area. This means the Japanese will likely not have to commit a huge number of army units to make this come about.

The question then becomes what to do with a good amount of the Japanese army. With the CW reeling so far in this game, especially on the ground and how far the Euroaxis are penetrating into the ME, should the Japanese be looking at taking a wack at India? This should be far more secure than taking a shot at say Australia. A big issue with a major ground campaign for the Japanese is it gets in the way of what they do with their navy, but it still could be quite beneficial.

[composer99]

The extra production the US gets for being at war with at least 1 Axis major power (and the follow-up extra production it gets for being at war with all Axis major powers) make it worth it for the US to go to war with the Axis whether it can get a good surprise impulse or not.

As far as US production goes, it's better to have excess sealift than excess units. Extra sealift can be used for reorganization.

[Klydon]

It is hindsight now, but I usually tried to build the longer lead time units (ships mostly) in the early days with limited production. I will take extra sealift/ships early because the production times for US ground troops/air is so much shorter than for the ships. That also means that even when the US declares in, it will be awhile before they can get their units into action, but when they do, they should be able to get more in and it should be a steady flow after that as long as their sealift remains intact. Even with this, it is even tougher from the standpoint of having "stuff" available since the US has had less time to build up for the start of the war.

[composer99]

Before I forget, now that the US has the tension to pass War Appropriations, it should refrain from passing any new options, if at all possible, until then.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Before I forget, now that the US has the tension to pass War Appropriations, it should refrain from passing any new options, if at all possible, until then.

Agreed, particularly since it was the best chit that got moved. [:(]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

So if you have 6 sea lift units for the US, what 3 air and land units are you going to send to Europe and which 3 out into the Pacific? There will only be one trip for each TRS/AMPH per turn unless you dedicate an HQ to reorganize them during a turn. Even then you need to hope that the turn doesn't end before they can make the second round trip.

The other 6 sea lift units need to be built ASAP. You know, there might be losses when they start sailing around when the US is at war with all the Axis major powers. And if you expect to actually invade somewhere, the units doing the invading will not be bringing reinforcements across.

In both theaters of the war you will want to have strong land and air units: fighters and naval air for sea operations and fighters and bombers for land operations. The strategic bombers can rebase to the United Kingdom on their own, but all the other units will be looking for a boat to ride over on.

I'll try to answer your questions first, and that might create another "You did what!!!"

I already have 2 GARR in Dutch Harbor, a GARR and INF in Honolulu, with 2 NAV and the 2 wimpy FTRs I started with in the Pacific region. Using extended range, I managed to get a LND to Iceland by way of Greenland. At the moment, I have a some land units, mostly the starting ART divisions, but also 2 INF divisions and both starting HQ units on the East Coast, but can get any/all of them back to the West Coast before they are needed there. Eisenhower is in production, so I'll transfer one of those HQs back for certain. The MAR will almost certainly be a West Coast reinforcement.
-----
And now . . .

I don't mean to pick on you, Steve, but it's this kind of thinking that gets on my nerves a little. Only a year into the game the US may be in good position to prepare for war, but just because the USA can DOW earlier than usual does not mean that it has had the time to prepare for it, does it? The Gear Up didn't happen until M/A '40, so there were 3 turns at 11 BP, 1 turn at 21 BP, and 1 turn at 20 BP before now. That's only 74 BP for the first 5 turns.

I was told, quite clearly, that I needed to build a land unit or two per turn from the start -- even with the USA -- so there is a minimum of 3 BP dedicated to that. I was told that I needed to build out my USA CV fleet as soon as they become available, which means I also needed to build the CVP and Pilots that would go with them soon after that. Now I'm told that I should also have focused on building out my sealift. This begins the circle, though:

Without sealift, the land units can't go anywhere. Without land units, what good is the sealift?

Again, I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong about this, because the USA absolutely wants to have all of these units on the map when it goes to war . . . but that doesn't usually happen until late 1941, which gives the USA player 3-4 more turns (~120 more BP) to work with than I'm expecting to get (assuming an early to mid-1941 entry).

So, the real question might have to be: just because the USA can enter the war early, should it? or is the threat enough to strike fear into the heart of Japan?

Perhaps I'm not terrific at planning 3-4 turns ahead, but with a game that is advancing "faster than average", I feel that the expectations (and suggestions/demands) are being made based on the typical point in the game that these events occur, rather than when they are actually happening.
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I will pre-apologize for any hard feelings this post generates. Maybe it's just a newbie thing, but maybe I do have a point?

Building carrier air units and pilots can wait. While the US is at peace it should build units that take a long time to arrive. HQ, Para, and Marines on land. CV, AMPH, TRS, and Convoys at sea (all the naval units take a long time - getting them through their first cycle is what is important - gobs of them can then be built simultaneously once the US goes to war). One land based air unit of your choosing can be built per turn. Maybe one pilot every other turn. This will give you a lot of air units in reserve. You can built a zero cost carrier air unit if you are running low on BPs.

The quantity of carrier air units should be coordinated with the carriers so sufficient CVPs arrive when the CVs do. Obviously the same is true for pilots. This takes planning and some tedious calculations. Because a CVP takes 4 turns, a pilot takes 3 turns and a CV take 12 turns, there is no need to rush the CVPs and pilots into production. You can start worrying about them once the CV begin their second cycle.

Part of the reason for building land units and land based air units is what you have learned already: when they are build early, they can be transported/pre-positioned peacefully overseas.

[Centuur]

On the building strategy by the USA, I agree. However, a few INF or GAR should be build to defend Dutch Harbour, Pearl Harbour and of course Pago Pago (don't forget that place, it's important. I lost it once in a game in the Japanese surprise impulse and got in a lot of problems for it).

Somebody here suggests a surrender of China. I would at least suggest waiting until 1941. The chit value of 1941 is far better than the one for 1940. Winter is coming, and it just might be that the Chinese (with both Kunming and Sian still in Chinese hands) will survive until that time. And 3-4 entry chits (for a conquest of China) is really nice, if they are good ones. If they are lousy ones (and in 1940 that is a good possibility) it might not be enough to go to war in early 1941.
Also: the Chinese Communists are still good for a good fight around Sian. Imagine also a Chinese Communist reïnforcement appearing in Sining (is that a communist city?) and it than starts walking towards Lan Chow. If the Japanese don't have units capable of getting to Lan Chow before it arrives, the Communists are having a ball, recapturing the place and forcing another roll for US entry. Very, very nice indeed. I don't know if there is a real communist INF arriving, but if it is, put it there and go for it (if indeed the Japanese units are out of range). It's always nice to force the Japanese into all kind of things they don't want to do. If you put that INF around Sian, it probably won't do as much good as in Sining...

[Red Prince]

Here are the builds for the 1st 5 Turns made by the USA:

S/O '39: USA (11): 1 x TERR, 1 x GARR, 1 x CV(1st), 2 x CVP-0, 1 x CVP-1, 1 x CV(Repair), 1 x Pilot
N/D '39: USA (11): 1 x INF Division, 1 x GARR, 1 x AMPH(1st), 2 x CVP-1, 1 x Pilot
J/F '40: USA (11): 1 x INF, 1 x GARR, 2 x CVP-1, 2 x Pilot
M/A '40: USA (21): 1 x MAR, 1 x HQ-A, 2 x CVP-1, 3 x Pilot
M/J '40: USA (20): 1 x MTN Division, 1 x MOT Division, 1 x AMPH(1st), 1 x FTR-2, 1 x CVP-1, 1 x NAV-3, 1 x SUB(2nd), 3 x Pilot

So, here's what we have:

1 x TERR . . . in Manila, so that I could evacuate the HQ there
3 x GARR . . . fortifying Honolulu and Dutch Harbor
1 x INF . . . fortifying Honolulu
10 x CVP . . . this may seem like a lot, but a few of my starting CVP dropped in Class when the year turned. I now have 6 CV Class-4 on-map, with 5 Class-4 CVP and 2 Class-2 CVP
10 x Pilot . . . this was for the CVP -- also, concerning the CVP and Pilots, there are more 2nd cycle CV still arriving on the (or about to arrive) on the spiral
2 x AMPH in their 1st cycle
1 x HQ-A (to arrive at the end of this year)
1 x INF Division . . . now available for SCS invasion on Surprise impulse
1 x MTN Division . . . soon to be available for SCS invasion on Surprise impulse
1 x MAR . . . about to be available for TRS invasion on Surprise impulse
1 x MOT Division . . . think it was the only available division that fit my price, and can be used with an INF Division to create a MOT Corps
1 x FTR-2 . . . for a reason I can't remember
1 x NAV-3 . . . for Atlantic Convoy protection (not to distant future)
1 x SUB . . . to join the 3 I have already in Iceland, to counter Germany and support the CW pipelines

Did I do very badly? Or was this suitable?

Perhaps I focused too much on making sure my CVs were all filled to capacity. I suppose I could have left the CVP in the Reserve Pool and spent the BP for 1 Pilot per turn on a new TRS. That would have gotten me most of the extra sealift on its 1st cycle, I suppose.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

On the building strategy by the USA, I agree. However, a few INF or GAR should be build to defend Dutch Harbour, Pearl Harbour and of course Pago Pago (don't forget that place, it's important. I lost it once in a game in the Japanese surprise impulse and got in a lot of problems for it).

Somebody here suggests a surrender of China. I would at least suggest waiting until 1941. The chit value of 1941 is far better than the one for 1940. Winter is coming, and it just might be that the Chinese (with both Kunming and Sian still in Chinese hands) will survive until that time. And 3-4 entry chits (for a conquest of China) is really nice, if they are good ones. If they are lousy ones (and in 1940 that is a good possibility) it might not be enough to go to war in early 1941.
Also: the Chinese Communists are still good for a good fight around Sian. Imagine also a Chinese Communist reïnforcement appearing in Sining (is that a communist city?) and it than starts walking towards Lan Chow. If the Japanese don't have units capable of getting to Lan Chow before it arrives, the Communists are having a ball, recapturing the place and forcing another roll for US entry. Very, very nice indeed. I don't know if there is a real communist INF arriving, but if it is, put it there and go for it (if indeed the Japanese units are out of range). It's always nice to force the Japanese into all kind of things they don't want to do. If you put that INF around Sian, it probably won't do as much good as in Sining...

If you look at Post #883 and #892 on Page 30, you'll see that the Japanese have a CAV still in Lanchow, though OOS, and that there are other units in the area that can reinforce it if the Communist Chinese put the 5-3 INF in position to make a move on it. I think it is a wiser choice to put it in Sian, swap the 4-1 and 5-1 GARR units, and either leave the MTN where it is or retreat it east one hex . . . probably leave it where it is. Under the 5-1 GARR in Post #892 is a 4-2 MIL. Given 2-3 impulses of good weather in S/O '40, Sian probably won't survive.

Kunming, on the other hand, might. There are 10 factors that can double to stacks of 16 and 4 or 12 and 8 by staying in the mountains and in the city. That means the Japanese need to create 2 very strong and/or risky attacks to get that city away from the Nationalists.

[Orm]

Your builds seems nice enough. As long as you have an idea or a plan for what you need with the US.

I would have built some more ships. A couple of fast BB would have been nice to have on the production spiral. But I am sure many disagree with me on this.

[Orm]

1 x SUB . . . to join the 3 I have already in Iceland, to counter Germany and support the CW pipelines

I suggest you relocate the US submarine fleet to the pacific as soon as possible. They will be much more useful threatening the convoy lines there.

I am sure that the US can find enough old battleships and cruisers to help the CW against Germany. Edit: If you do not have enough surface fleet for this I strongly suggest you begin to build more ships.

[Orm]

I also suggest that you do not surrender China. If China is left in control of Kunming they might be able to build some units with lend lease assistance. China alive might also force Japan to make a land move or two when Japan would rather make a naval impulse.