My Take on Battlefront

[JameyCribbs]

Hi. Longtime (mostly) lurker on these forums. Have purchased more Matrix games than I care to remember (not that that makes me any kind of expert). I recently purchased Battlefront and wanted to give one man's opinion on it.

I'm in my 40's. I grew up doing a lot of solitary board wargaming, mostly Avalon Hill stuff. Have played most of the standard pc "traditional" wargames (anyone remember Microprose's Crusade in Europe). Like I said, I'm sure my purchases alone have provided David Heath's kids with braces and Erik's kid's college fund! [:)]

Anyway, you would think Battlefront would be right down my alley. I prefer turn-based, operational-style wargames that focus on WWII. Plus, Market Garden is up there as one of my all-time favorite battles (I have read "A Bridge Too Far" at least a half-dozen times). So, me and Battlefront should be a match made in heaven, right?

Well, unfortunately, we just didn't hit it off. Oh, we tried a few dates, but the spark just wasn't there. This post is my effort to try to figure out why.

I think there were two major issues I had with Battlefront. Let me tackle the simpler one first.

First of all, I can't freakin' read the counters! This has been discussed in this forum before. I don't know if I'm getting too old, or I need a new prescription, or what, but having to sit 12 inches away from my monitor and squint to play Battlefront is not conducive to a good time. I have a 17-inch LCD monitor, native resolution 1280x1024. And before everyone starts suggesting things, save your breath. I've read all of the suggestions and they, to me, are un-acceptable. I tried playing at 1024x768, the counter's are still too small and now everything is blurry. I tried 1024x768 without scaling; now my screen real-estate is the size of a postage stamp. No, I'm not going to plunk down hundreds of dollars to buy a new monitor, I spent over $200 just last year to buy the one I have.

Now, I know that there has been a lot of questions about what is meant by "the counters are too small". What I'm talking about is that it is too hard to see the information on the unit counters. The unit emblems are not identifiable. It's hard to see how many steps are left, etc, etc. Yes, I know about the alt key. It helps a little, but having to move it around to see a counter feels archaic, and when the magnifying glass is over a unit, the unit and terrain in view is blurry again, because the resolution that it is being magnified to is not native. It just feels like something out of the Dark Ages. Contrast this with the sharp, easily legible counters used in COTA. Don't get me wrong, the terrain is beautiful. And I could even live with the counters, if they were just bigger so that the info on them was bigger and easier to see.

Ok, on to my second point. The designer's of Battlefront have proudly stressed the point that they wanted the game to have a board wargame feel to it, all the way down to the gamer being able to see the dice roll for combat. That's great, nothing wrong with that. Except, I think they have taken it too far. I think they have thrown away all the advantages that the computer offers. I have read through the manual twice, yet, everytime I start a scenario, I get overwhelmed. There are so many little bullets, roundels, jerry cans, etc. scattered all over the map, the unit boxes, the transportation boxes, the interdiction boxes, the combat boxes, etc, that I can't remember what everything means. Ditto for the colors. I keep forgetting what a skeleton on a red background means, is that a dead step that can be replaced by a timed replacement? The designer's have attempted to squeeze all kinds of grognardy info all over the place...and that's great! I love grognardy stuff. But the problem is that I can't keep in my head what all the little pictures and colors mean. I have to constantly refer to the manual, a manual that, in my opionion, is poorly organized and incomplete.

Now, the designer's could have salvaged the situation if they had decided to use tooltips, but they didn't. Let me contrast this with Birth of America. There are some similiarities between the two games. BOA also has a lot of little sub-icons/images/whatever scattered all over that give you information about a unit or a battle or a location. The reason why it works in BOA is that you can hover your mouse over any one of these images and an awesome tooltip pops up explaining exactly what the image represents! What does Battlefront give you? Zip. Battlefront does have a rudimentary system in place whereby if you click and hold the right mouse button, you might get a one-liner telling what a button does, or, if you are over a hex, it will pop up an equally confusing box that gives you another bewildering array of icons/images/bullets/roundels/jerry-cans that represent the state of units/terrain/objectives/etc in that hex. But you are left with the same problem, how to quickly interpret and remember what all those symbols mean!

What kind of a difference does all this make? Well, I recently bought both Battlefront and BOA. I tried really hard to get into Battlefront. Man, I wanted to play MarketGarden so bad and see Frost's troops hold onto the Arnhem bridge long enough to be rescued by the Guards Armored, but I just couldn't past the first turn. The unintuitve, information-cryptic user interface was too daunting for an 43-year old who had worked all day and was in danger of falling asleep. The last thing I wanted to do was to have to sift through the manual once again to decipher the user interface.

Contrast this with BOA. For the last three nights, I have tackled the small 1776 Carolina scenario. Everytime I play it I have fun, but not only that, I learn the game more, because it is fun to hover the mouse over all of the colorful symbols, read the well-written tooltips, and start to internalize the workings of the user interface. It is now becoming second nature and I don't have to refer to the tooltips nearly as much, but they are there if I need them.

Ok, I think I will stop. I know these thoughts are rambling and incomplete. I really have not posted this in an attempt to bash Battlefront. On the contrary, I have tons of respect for SSG and only want to see them succeed. I played Carriers At War till my fingers were numb. It's just that I think that it is possible for them to keep that old-time board wargame feel, while using the modern power of the pc to make their wargames complex yet accessible. I don't know about you, but I just don't have the time to constantly pore over 50 pages of the Third Reich rulebook like I used to when I was a teenager.

SSG, please take a lesson from Birth Of America. They designed a fun game that looks like a board wargame, but is very easy to pick up and play, and has a depth and complexity under the surface.

Jamey

[BlackSunshine]

I understand where you are coming from. 

When I first bough Korsun Pocket (which Battlefront's "engine" comes from), I was overwhelmed as well.  I had played TOAW:COW for a long, long time prior to this, and really needed another operational war game to play.  I must have read the manual several times, and just basically played around until I started figuring things out.  I still probably don't know everything!
 
But... it was the kind of game I wanted to play so I eventually learned the system, and cannot be happier. 
 
I like that the units have tons of information on them.  Battlefront's manual was not written all that well, but, when you understand everything, it's worth every penny.  I also do agree with you that there could be tooltips, but once again, when you get the system down, you don't need them.  Obviously it may turn off new players such as yourself, and I hope that in the future SSG either a) has a better written manual or b) uses tool tips.
 
As for the graphics.  Yes, they were a little harder to read from the previous DB games, but, like above, the system grows on you and if this is the kind of game you want, stick with it and you will enjoy it immensely.
 
 

[Wilhammer]

Want a truly ugly set of 2 D hexes - try the Panzer Campaigns series. - very small and no info on the counters - and I don't much care for the 3 D view at the scale.


---------------

1. The manual for BF is a mess.

2. Why don't they have a zoom in map? What a waste of graphics ability - BoA's zoom capability is the model.

3. Balloon tips and info - preach on, brother. That sure would help - I kept looking for tool tips with mouse overs or right clicks - and was utterly frustrated with it missing.

4. Getting past all that, you will find the game rewarding and close to what you want - I too am in my 40s, cutting my teeth on AH and SPI in the late 70s and early 80s.

For zooming, the ALT button works for me, and for more unit info, the unit screen on the right is the place to be. I wish you could zoom in the whole map though.

[JSS]

@JameyCribbs,

How does what you see for the counters compare with the images in the War in the Desert thread?

The images there are basically what I see (the counters are a bit crisper in my game view).

JSS

[BlackSunshine]

ORIGINAL: JSS

@JameyCribbs,

How does what you see for the counters compare with the images in the War in the Desert thread?

The images there are basically what I see (the counters are a bit crisper in my game view).

JSS

Yeah the images are cripser in my game as well. Any idea how to get better looking screenshots? I have to change the quality of the image for upload purposes (size).

[Wilhammer]

Better looking screenshots for my technical writing at work involves using a screen capture utility (FSCapture is freeware and one of the best) to output the capture in PNG format, a lossless image format. It compresses well when you want to resize the graphics. Then, convert the file to a high quality jpeg for Web Friendliness.

http://www.faststone.org/FSCaptureDetail.htm

Modern browsers display PNG format, so converting to JPEG is not a requirment nearly all the time. Older browaser will not handle PNG format - but they would be really old.

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: JameyCribbs

First of all, I can't freakin' read the counters!

I have been paying this series for 5 years. The only info on the counter is the divisional patch and a small light.

All the other info is obtained from the info screen or the bar on the right hand side.

I have no idea what it is you cannot read!

[iberian]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

[
I have been paying this series for 5 years. The only info on the counter is the divisional patch and a small light.

All the other info is obtained from the info screen or the bar on the right hand side.

I have no idea what it is you cannot read!

To be fair with the original poster, there's more info on each counter that what you mention:

- a NATO simbol about the unit: infantry, cavalry, armour, artillery, antitank, antiair, etc.
- this NATO simbol, sometimes is even enriched: small dots under it to show the unit is motorized, or a dot and a dash to show it's mechanized. Heavy artillery is also shown with a bigger dot than normal artillery
- a simbol for the size of the unit: company, battalion, regiment, brigade...
- the background of the counter sometimes is also meaningful: red tone for flamethrowing Sherman company, different color for penal battalion, etc...

All in all, I love it.

I love all the detail in the counters: the roundels, the patches, the small shields, the shock shift. I love it all.

P.D. Link the ALT key with a button of your mouse, and you are in heaven.

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: Wilhammer

Better looking screenshots for my technical writing at work involves using a screen capture utility (FSCapture is freeware and one of the best) to output the capture in PNG format, a lossless image format. It compresses well when you want to resize the graphics. Then, convert the file to a high quality jpeg for Web Friendliness.

http://www.faststone.org/FSCaptureDetail.htm

Modern browsers display PNG format, so converting to JPEG is not a requirment nearly all the time. Older browaser will not handle PNG format - but they would be really old.

Excellent utility! I downloaded it and was using it immediately. Thanks a bunch! [&o][&o][&o]

[cdbeck]

JSS,

Are you also the admin over at the SSG forums? I'm very impressed by the quality of response by the devs at SSG in this forum and the SSG one. Very nice to see active Dev interest in their consumers!

I'm as a whole impressed by Matrix's active role as a publisher and in the various design teams. I have found the fine fellows at SSG and Panther Games to be some of the most responsive crews in the business (a fact both used and abused by us, the demanding forum public).

Anyway, I'm guessing that some of the blur in the AAR screenshots, like your AAR BlackSunshine, is from the screen capture and not the actual game? Even in those screens, I have little trouble reading the info on the unit. Still, I usually rely on the right hand side bar (at least in KP and BiN) to give me the information I need.

Son of Montfort

[coralsaw]

I have to side up with the original author, especially re/ tooltips. All in all (check other similar threads as well), the UI is terribly dated, and not at all practical. Better than KP/BiI/BiN, but still 10y old. IMHO of course.

The end result being making new users learning curve (and dropout rate) higher, as the original author aptly described. Please do something about it in the next installment.

/coralsaw

[fabforrest]

jamie, thanks for your comments. i suspect i would react the same way. my perfect combinations of accuracy and playability were the World at War games Operation Crusader and D-Day. i have dabbled with BiN and there is just more there to keep track of than i want in a "game."

[sol_invictus]

Played KP and BII and I'm waiting for Battlefront to arrive in the mail, but I do agree, the V4V/WAW engine was a classic. I so wish someone would pick those up and re-release them. Combined Arms seems to be fairly close, but it is anyones guess when/if that will be released.

[fabforrest]

"the V4V/WAW engine was a classic. I so wish someone would pick those up and re-release them"

i hear that!

i used to keep an old machine around just to play them. i would jump all over a re-release.

[solops]

I agree with the original poster. If the graphics are like those in KP and ATD then I want no part of the game. I was (am) a huge fan of the original Battlefront game from the 80's on the Apple IIe. I wrote dozens of scenarios and did quite well in the scenario contest SSG had. However, the graphics in the new games are very poor and difficult to read. I dislike the entire interface system. TOAW looks much better. I think this is a shame because SSG has always had super engines under the hood and outstanding AI.

[TPM]

ORIGINAL: fabforrest

"the V4V/WAW engine was a classic. I so wish someone would pick those up and re-release them"

i hear that!

i used to keep an old machine around just to play them. i would jump all over a re-release.

You can still play those games if you want. Check this out:

http://www.the-underdogs.info/

The old Battlefront is there, all kinds of stuff. Of course, you'll need some kind of DOS emulator (DOSBox).

I used to own the Crusader V4V and loved it, but now revisiting it, I'm not too into it...not sure why, have to check it out some more.

[MartNick]

Hi

Between

http://www.the-underdogs.info/

and

http://www.abandonia.com

You can dl for free all of the V4V and WAW series. VDMSound is another emulator software that works on these titles. Some of them run OK in Windows XP.

In fact there is a new version of DosBox released which runs these games even better than before.

[Roughtor]

In V4V I like the supply system where you could've set the level of supply for each division (minimal, defensive, attack etc.) that produced very realistic results in Velkiye Luki for example... but as much as I loved those games I can't imagine plotting every single unit's movements... what makes Battlefront and the Decisive Battles so appealing is the fluid battle... which of course has its downsides as well... is way too easy to envelop and destroy individual units with overwhelming numbers... which brings me to the point that with the combat advisor it's ever easier to attack and make breakthroughs and still sort of hit and miss when planning the defense... seeing where the weakpoint is (which will be visible to the opponent when he clicks on the combat advisor) requires clicking through all units and adding up defensive values... a defense advisor would be helpful that would basically show the same info the attacker will see...

and I don't understand why people are so concerned with the graphics... it's a strategy game... graphics are just an eye-candy... and for an operational wargame I find them quite pleasing... sure the divisional emblems got smaller with the scale change, there is even more info to cram into the icons now...

considering the small niche grognards represent I am more than pleased with the end result...

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: Akitsuki
.....requires clicking through all units and adding up defensive values... a defense advisor would be helpful that would basically show the same info the attacker will see...

There is a defense adviser. It does as you say. it was requested and delivered as a patch for BiN. It has been in all the games since. Obviously you have more info on your troops than your opponent does.

[BlackSunshine]

I believe the hotkey is F7.