Matrix Games Forums

Hi,

I have noticed that the combat/manoeuvre units do seem to be very agile, too agile in my view[;)].

To give an example. In one twelve hour period, one day, a unit can move the equivalent of 15km plus, and still launch a full force attack, even through a minefield against dug in defenders. This makes operational war a more agile affair than the reality would be. The game system is outstanding, I do not wish to change it but would like to see a feeling of “running in mud”, would like to see some of the frustrations of operational warfare modelled in more detail without spoiling the system.

My suggestion would be that only friendly units that start a turn adjacent to, or within two hexes of the target enemy unit, can attack with full power. This would simulate the need to have time to properly organise, plan, issue orders, do recon and rest before a regimental scale attack. A unit must start the turn in place, or in a nearby forming up area, if it is to attack with full force.

If a unit moved more than one hex and then launched an attack, all in one twelve hour period, I would suggest that in the real world this would be a hasty attack. I would suggest halving the attack power of such units and halving both the tactical and artillery shifts associated with the attack.

In the real world a regiment given an order at 7pm to attack the next morning a location 15km distant would not be able to launch a full force attack. To launch a full force attack the regiment would have to be in the line opposite the target location, or in a forming up area a very few km away, by the evening before the attack in order to fully plan such an attack. i.e. to make it a “full force” attack.

All good fun[:)],
All the best,
Kip.

Hi,

Having now completed my first full game of Korsun Pocket it has reinforced my first impression that the combat units are too agile. It is too quick to organise long-distance attacks.

I witnessed the AI controlled Germans send entire German infantry divisions, together with a panzer division, to “pick-off” individual Soviet infantry regiments holding quite sections of the line. All in just one twelve hour turn. I realise that in fact this one turn represented orders being issue the evening before and then German forces attacking the next day. The German infantry division would be brought together from scattered positions and marched 15km plus to attack. The panzer units would be brought together and marched far longer to attack a location they had no prior warning of the next day.

The above could not be done in reality without the resulting attack being a “hasty” attack at well under full power.

I appreciate the stunning, almost magical way, the game system works. All the hype is justified. As hex type, IGOUGO operational wargames go it will never be bettered[:D].

However… a rule that attacking units must start the turn within two hexes of the target unit to attack at “full combat power” would add a large dose of realism without breaking up the flow of the game. Players could still make “long-distance” attacks marching in from 20km plus distances but these would be hasty attacks at greatly reduced power. As they would be in reality. No recon of covered approach routes, no detailed recon of enemy positions, no careful targeting or coordination of artillery support… and so on. Hence greatly reduced attacking power.

Great wargames even without the reduced agility of combat units[:)].

All the best,
Kip.

Kip,

Your post raises some interesting points. As with many issues regrading greater realism, the easy part is thinking of a rule that might achieve a desired result. It's much harder to think of a way to implement this rule so that all players can see exactly what's going on. This is not a criticism of your point, I'm just trying to explain a little of what we have to consider.

Your idea of relating attack power to how far a unit has moved would be useable if people moved and attacked methodically, and always finished all actions to do with one attack before moving on to the next. However, not many people (including me) are that disciplined, and those people are going to end up with a mixtures of units, full strength for some attacks and half for others scattered all over the map. The issue then becomes, how do we display all this?

Another consideration is the AI. The current AI is pretty good at attacking, this rule would makes its job much more difficult.

That being said, we always think about ways that we can restrict the natural propensity of players to attack every day with every unit. At the moment, we don't have absolute restrictions, but we do reward those players who pull units out of the line to refit and build up OP reserves, so it is an area of the game system that we have improved over time, and will continue to explore.

Gregor

Gregor,

Thanks for getting back to me.

I know only too well that you understand your own game a hundred times better than I do[:)]. You will know the options for dealing with the problem, if you think it is a problem[;)].

But my view remains that it is too easy, too quick, to launch “full power” attacks. Nothing even close to this would be possible in the real world.

But this does not detract from my admiration for the series of games. A great balance between playability and realism.

All the best,
Kip.

Try Httr if you want this kind of realism: when you plan an order, the system play against you and not for you...
In fact, there's a major difference between two type of wargames: those where the better planning makes the better results (like BiI), those where the better planning makes the better possibility of action (like CM or Httr).

You choose what kind of player you want to be: an omnipotent strategist or a simple commander.

Hi,

“In fact, there's a major difference between two type of wargames: those where the better planning makes the better results (like BiI), those where the better planning makes the better possibility of action (like CM or Httr).”

I too am a fan of those two games, a huge fan of CM .

All the best,
Kip.

Gregor, hi,

“But my view remains that it is too easy, too quick, to launch “full power” attacks. Nothing even close to this would be possible in the real world.
But this does not detract from my admiration for the series of games. A great balance between playability and realism.”

From a post of mine last year. Says it all [;)].

I am accustomed to having to lobby for years at a time but if I am a fan of a game I think it is worth the effort [:)]. You really do have great system, but the lack of realism with regard to the ease with which attacks can be organized is quite a big hit on the all important realism front.

Have you thought of having a system that reduces the speed with which units can be organized for attack, at their full strength, as an option? There may be able to be two modes of play, standard and advanced, or simply having increased times to organize full strength attacks as an option on its own.

It would be a shame if the issue were not addressed as your game system comes within a whisker of being the “perfect” mix of ease of play and realism. But with the current speed with which battalions and regiments can be thrown around the map, at full strength, it just is not quite realistic enough. In my view [;)].

When watching the wargames play out I like to feel that what I am watching is a reasonable representation of how things would have happened in real life, in operational games combat teams need some limit on their agility.

Is there any chance of such an option?

All good fun,
All the best,
Kip.

Kip,
 
I can't say too much, but I can say that our next game, while not directly preventing units attacking off the march, will include a number of structures which will allow the scenario designer to impose a much more realsitic tempo to military operations. This system will greatly reward a player who assembles all his units, including their support elements, and ensures that they have full logistical and command capacity before launching an attack. This will definitely penalise those who split formations, or attack piecemeal before everything is in place.
 
Gregor

Gregor, hi,

“Will include a number of structures which will allow the scenario designer to impose a much more realistic tempo to military operations.”

Great… I am not hung up on how this is achieved, as I say you know your game a hundred times better than I do. Also, the simplicity of your system works well. I am not out to change that. Just to make “full force” attacks somewhat slower to achieve off the cuff. You clearly aim to achieve just that.

Looking forward to the next game[:)],
All the best,
Kip.