Artillery Effectiveness and SPWAW

[KG Erwin]

Something that's not being said is the fact that American artillery fire techniques were the best in the world in WWII. In the ETO, especially, US artillery and airpower was the great equalizer against the vaunted German panzer divisions. The reason for this is that our firepower shredded the accompanying German infantry, thus leaving the panzers blind.

A wounded animal is still dangerous, yes, but look at the example of the 2nd Panzer Div as it approached the Meuse during the Bulge offensive. Once it was isolated and immobilized, our arty and airpower virtually destroyed it.

A personal comment: I see fewer and fewer posts from the "Tiger Kiddies". Why is this? The "Allied Clique", such as it is, seems to dominate the postings these days. Is it no longer fashionable to play as "the bad guys"? Just curious.

[Orzel Bialy]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
A personal comment: I see fewer and fewer posts from the "Tiger Kiddies". Why is this? The "Allied Clique", such as it is, seems to dominate the postings these days. Is it no longer fashionable to play as "the bad guys"? Just curious.

Because the whole Tiger Kiddies thing was rather blown out of portion to begin with and way over-used IMO. From the time period I have been around the forums things have moved in cycles...just like life. TK started out as a term derived from the first couple of OoB debates and then was drifted into the general public as a label put on anyone who preferred to play as the Germans.

Sure people liked to mess around with the German Army first...because they lost. It's rather interesting to play "what if" and try to see if you can hold back waves of Russian infantry and tanks...or endure US air and artillery power. But after a while people move on to other aspects...like I did with the minor nations.

Like I said...it has it's cycle of interest.[;)]

[h_h_lightcap]

Flash---now who is tilting at windmills???---HA HA!!!! Keep fighting and I am toasting you right now with a Jim Beam and soda!!!!!


HH---

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: h_h_lightcap

Flash---now who is tilting at windmills???---HA HA!!!! Keep fighting and I am toasting you right now with a Jim Beam and soda!!!!!


HH---

What do you mean?

On another note, after switching to 120% arty effectiveness, I just started a new Marine campaign and I'm finding that my Japanese opponents have artillery that causes fear and destruction amongst my men. Did this happen in real life? Yes. In the early days, say 1942, does this also represent the Japanese fleet's offshore bombardments? I'd think so.

As for the mix, hh, in honor of the New Year I'm having Captain Morgan and diet coke. [;)]

[FlashfyreSP]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

ORIGINAL: h_h_lightcap

Flash---now who is tilting at windmills???---HA HA!!!! Keep fighting and I am toasting you right now with a Jim Beam and soda!!!!!


HH---

What do you mean?

On another note, after switching to 120% arty effectiveness, I just started a new Marine campaign and I'm finding that my Japanese opponents have artillery that causes fear and destruction amongst my men. Did this happen in real life? Yes. In the early days, say 1942, does this also represent the Japanese fleet's offshore bombardments? I'd think so.

As for the mix, hh, in honor of the New Year I'm having Captain Morgan and diet coke. [;)]

And that's how it should be. Troops under bombardment do not just casually walk around ignoring the bursting shells like they do in the game at 100% setting.

[azraelck]

I actually have mine set at 140%, because I felt that artillery wasn't causing enough casualties and suppression. Plus, especially in long campaigns, when your entire battlion is called "The Justice Leauge of America", and include Sgt Superman, and Captain Spectre, that helps equalize your growing advantage over the AI. Even if hordes of them are still having their souls ripped out and cooked into a stew by the Spectre. 

I cannot recall the splash damage done being messed up, but then again I only noticed it if I was being hit so hard that I had a 3-5 hex gap open in my lines. Or my entire force was being wiped out by a single plane.


As to the "Tiger Kiddies", I think it's partially because of preconcieved notions of German Superiority. We can look at DaimlerChrysler's current state to see the falacy in that. DCX is only great at fraud and embezzelment. Partially, it's a desire to be "the bad guy", and partly, it's because every other game and it's dog are from the US-point of view. A few go into other allied nations' battles, like Call of Duty, but overwhelmingly if you play a lot of WWII games, you play as Americans. I actually started as American, because I felt I knew them better than the rest, and could learn the game engine while knowing the strengths and weaknesses of my forces and equipment better. I then went to German, and now I just play various nations randomly as I feel like it or read something interesting about them. 

[FlashfyreSP]

I recall some of the old "Tiger Kiddies" discussions here, and they centered mostly around an argument like, "I think the German (fill-in-the-blank) should have better armour values because they were the best tanks in the war and mine keep getting knocked out by T-34s."

These arguments usually failed to address the "playing style" and instead tended to look for 'flaws' in the game engine or the OOB data to explain away why 'the German equipment' wasn't modeled correctly. So a number of 'adjustments' were made that seemed to improve the German unit capability at the expense of the Allied side. And everytime there was a new revision 'in the works', Paul or David would have to hear about how even more things were wrong with the German OOB data. The discussions would start anew, and the truly knowledgeable folks around here would be 'shouted down' by the newly-christened 'Tiger kiddies', and the design team would 'give in' and make more adjustments.

This is how the Fire Control ratings became so screwed up, because it was a 'quick fix' to address the claim that "the Germans had superior sight equipment and should be able to hit on the first shot". The 'kiddies' never accepted that superior optics were only a part of the reason German gunnery was better, that gunnery skill and luck also played a part.

[KG Erwin]

Good points, guys. The game as it now stands is the best version we've ever had, and when one incorporates the mech.exe in the Enhanced version, some old prejudices have to be re-examined.

The idea of an inherent German superiority dies hard, so the argument may never end. Everyone knows where my loyalties lie, so you must take that into account.

As of now, though, a player can get a grasp of how the Axis Powers lost. I don't believe that an Allied victory was inevitable. However, given the scale of SPWaW, strategic decisions play little part. We see the war at the sharp end, and can indulge in whatever alternate realities we desire. That's the beauty of it, and the biggest reason for its continued popularity.

[Krec]

i would suggest any setting between 120-150 will give you an acceptable result, 100-110 is just not acceptable IMO. We are talkin EH HTH of course. i personally like 140[:D], but thats just me, i would like to know if i hit a area with 120 or above , units in the ready are the exception not the norm and i can live with that. at 100 just doesnt seem to do jack.

[KG Erwin]

I just started a new solo campaign, and setting arty at 120% works for the AI. However, it also works for me, so I'll take the trade-off.

[FlashfyreSP]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

I just started a new solo campaign, and setting arty at 120% works for the AI. However, it also works for me, so I'll take the trade-off.

You'll take the trade-off??? [&:]
What trade-off? That your Gyrenes should have "more deadly" artillery than your enemy, or that the AI should have another "advantage" to offset your gameplay?

Of COURSE the setting works for both you and the AI...UNLESS you purposely only set YOUR side in the Pref screen, leaving the AI to work with the original setting.

I don't understand what the problem is...the artillery settings in 8.4 are reduced compared to those in 8.3, and setting the Preference to 120% brings the artillery back to an approximate 100% of 8.3 settings. Why do you all seem to think that this "change" is to make the artillery more effective?

[KNomad]

I just wanna say thanks for the 'heads up' about setting the Artillery to 120%. It's been awhile since I've played with my toy soldiers and am now enjoying SPWAW's finest hour in my EnhLLRV campaign thanks to that little change.
 Here's to everyone that 'kept the light on' while I was away.
 
 

[Orzel Bialy]

ORIGINAL: KNomad

I just wanna say thanks for the 'heads up' about setting the Artillery to 120%. It's been awhile since I've played with my toy soldiers and am now enjoying SPWAW's finest hour in my EnhLLRV campaign thanks to that little change.
 Here's to everyone that 'kept the light on' while I was away.

Welcome back. [:)]

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

I just started a new solo campaign, and setting arty at 120% works for the AI. However, it also works for me, so I'll take the trade-off.

You'll take the trade-off??? [&:]
What trade-off? That your Gyrenes should have "more deadly" artillery than your enemy, or that the AI should have another "advantage" to offset your gameplay?

Of COURSE the setting works for both you and the AI...UNLESS you purposely only set YOUR side in the Pref screen, leaving the AI to work with the original setting.

I don't understand what the problem is...the artillery settings in 8.4 are reduced compared to those in 8.3, and setting the Preference to 120% brings the artillery back to an approximate 100% of 8.3 settings. Why do you all seem to think that this "change" is to make the artillery more effective?

Ok -- been offline for a few days (new cable modem now installed). I'd been playing with 8.403 settings for quite awhile, so it may take me a few turns to readjust into 8.3 mode.

I set the arty at 120% for both me and the AI.

[FlashfyreSP]

Just trying to understand your wording...
The phrase "trade-off" implies that you'll give up something for something; confused as to what you're giving up with Arty set to 120% for both sides?

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Just trying to understand your wording...
The phrase "trade-off" implies that you'll give up something for something; confused as to what you're giving up with Arty set to 120% for both sides?

Kevin, I've been thinking about this, and I've determined that historical accuracy demands that the default 120% be used forboth sides.

In the case of the Japanese in 1942, I CANNOT discount the effect of naval arty, which the Japanese used to devastating effect in the 1942 battles. SO, I'm assuming that most of the punishment my Marines are getting comes from offshore.

The default 8.3 values restore the usefulness of light artillery (the 75mm and below). I've started my battles with one battalion of 105s (offboard) and eight 75mm PacK howitzers onboard as support.

With these 75s, I've gotten two consecutive decisive victories. The casualty levels tell the story.

1st battle --delay -- 113 USMC, 662 Jap
2nd Battle -- defend -- 112 USMC, 701 Jap

Now, these ratios aren't ridiculously out of kilter with historical levels, so I'm happy with that. The Japanese arty, and a couple of air strikes, caused many of the US losses.

I 'm focusing here because I hope that a player unfamiliar with the theater can get a feel of what is what like in similar circumstances.

In Japanese vs USMC battles, you must keep in mind the time-frame and the missions. The amphibious assault against a dug-in enemy is still in the future.

[FlashfyreSP]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin


Kevin, I've been thinking about this, and I've determined that historical accuracy demands that the default 120% be used forboth sides.

Huh?
Forgive me for not understanding, but are you implying that the Arty levels not be equal for both sides?

Of course it should be 120% for both sides; it should be 100% for both sides, if that's what you want to play with. Hell, it could be 50%, as long as it's for both sides. Your statements make it sound like this is an "epiphany" or something...

No one I know of has EVER advocated setting the Preference settings for Arty different for each side; any change to that setting should be made equally for both players, be they human or AI.