[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank:
I am from Germany. I live there. But one point disgusts me:
Why do you think you have to call the Germans Nazis?
MindSpy
I`d say that many things that are used as symbols by any authority often tend to carry
the association, and that as time passes the notoriety of the authority will eventually
cause a triggered response to the symbols,
as a result of learning.
I don`t recall learning in school or in proper literature and apropriate learning materials that the Germans were NAZI`s.
I don`t even recall being told by any proper
source that the symbols and units were
permanent.
More importantly units that were MORE loyal to the Party would of course have the greatest appeal and glamour from their roles and accomplishments. That is of course the whole point behind political armed forces vs National armed forces.
But it would be foolish to think that the
politically inclined armed forces would
behave similarly to regular armed forces which are known to have restraint problems of their own.
If you take offense to reading NAZI Germany then I can understand you would point it out.
If you take offense to a Republican or Monarchy designation it would also be something you would point out! However it is
not incorrect to call Germany: NAZI Germany.
Suffice it to say, no loyalty test would be applied to take offense to NAZI termination today. HOWEVER, ... and of course WAW is not a modern game
MindSpy
Question of good taste
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
As to the use of the SS symbology in wargaming, I believe it comes down to a subconscious desire to choose the most recognizable symbol to market an item. And who would disagree that the SS branch collar device, or the Death's Head (Totenkopf) Division's unit patch, are the most recognizable of Germany's armed forces?
They are recognized because they are associated with some of the most heinous atrocities committed in history. These symbols were repeatedly shown to the Allies, both military and civilian, to engender a hatred so great that nothing less than unconditional defeat would satisfy them.
Right or wrong, the use of symbols to present a product/idea is the heart of marketing. And, unfortunately, due to a lack of education, many of the younger generations lack the first-hand knowledge of what these symbols actually represented.
And on the subject of the swastika....it is true that the symbol, in various incarnations, has been in use for centuries. Hitler chose to alter it a bit and use it for his own purpose. However, it is still only a political symbol. The German armed services never used it in their unit markings....the Iron Cross was the symbol used. Just as the US used a single white star, not the stars-and-bars, the swastika was the national flag, and only appeared as such. True, many German vehicles draped a flag over their vehicles, but only for ID purposes for Luftwaffe pilots.
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They are recognized because they are associated with some of the most heinous atrocities committed in history. These symbols were repeatedly shown to the Allies, both military and civilian, to engender a hatred so great that nothing less than unconditional defeat would satisfy them.
Right or wrong, the use of symbols to present a product/idea is the heart of marketing. And, unfortunately, due to a lack of education, many of the younger generations lack the first-hand knowledge of what these symbols actually represented.
And on the subject of the swastika....it is true that the symbol, in various incarnations, has been in use for centuries. Hitler chose to alter it a bit and use it for his own purpose. However, it is still only a political symbol. The German armed services never used it in their unit markings....the Iron Cross was the symbol used. Just as the US used a single white star, not the stars-and-bars, the swastika was the national flag, and only appeared as such. True, many German vehicles draped a flag over their vehicles, but only for ID purposes for Luftwaffe pilots.
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GrinningDwarf
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 10:00 am
- Location: Payne's Creek, CA USA
This is what I think, too. I think it's the most obvious emblem of WW2. An American soldier might not stand out to non-grognards or non-history buffs as neccesarily portraying WW2, and I don't think most of the American public would recognize a British, Canadian, or Soviet soldier at all.Originally posted by Flashfyre:
As to the use of the SS symbology in wargaming, I believe it comes down to a subconscious desire to choose the most recognizable symbol to market an item. And who would disagree that the SS branch collar device, or the Death's Head (Totenkopf) Division's unit patch, are the most recognizable of Germany's armed forces?
True in most cases, but the swastika was used on Luftwaffe aircraft rudders.And on the subject of the swastika....The German armed services never used it in their unit markings....the Iron Cross was the symbol used. Just as the US used a single white star, not the stars-and-bars, the swastika was the national flag, and only appeared as such. True, many German vehicles draped a flag over their vehicles, but only for ID purposes for Luftwaffe pilots.
Sergeant to new replacements on the line: I may not have time to tell you to duck, but if you see me dive for the ground you might want to think about why I'm doing it.
I'm an American citizen currently living in Germany. I have a number of German friends and acquaintances. I would no more call them a "Nazi" than I would call my afro-American friends the infamous "N" word. It is stupid to characterize any individual based upon their appearance, ethnicity, or country of birth. My father is Italian - my mother is Hispanic. There is a couple of different names you can call me to get me riled up. I believe the original post was not centered around whether the SS should/shouldn't be used or modeled in the game. It was intended to request that during posting - that we not refer to the German Army or the German people as whole - as Nazis.
Reasonable request - I intend to honor it.
Reasonable request - I intend to honor it.
JNL
JNL yeah but ya see thats the part i don't understand ... we shouldn't call folks that ...but it's ok to depict that in the logo and for some to take the upside of the SS myths and the whole german WW2 superiority thingy and thats OK ?? I would think if hearing germans called Nazi's was bothersome then they wouldn't get past the guy in the recruiting poster ?
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
To me the Nazi thing is some kind of joke today. When we are playing SPWAW with my friend, the other of us is a "Nazi pig" and the other one is a "communist pig" or something. Of course I wouldn't call any German citizen a Nazi today (except those that really are), and I don't believe that anyone here has done it either.
You can find pictures in every German history school book showing the swatiska or some SS runes. We have to learn from our history, so we have to know what happend and how we could prevent it happening again.
The usage or glorification of NS symbols is forbidden in Germany. Even the words "I am proud to be German" let look you like a criminal/neonazi (buttons with this words on it are banned by law).
[This message has been edited by Frank (edited December 22, 2000).]
The usage or glorification of NS symbols is forbidden in Germany. Even the words "I am proud to be German" let look you like a criminal/neonazi (buttons with this words on it are banned by law).
[This message has been edited by Frank (edited December 22, 2000).]
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
Flashfyre: Please forgive me at this point if someone else has already pointed this out, as I haven't read the entire thread, but you said
That's not true. Have you ever seen 'both sides' of the German soldier's helmet? The Waffen-SS had the SS runes one either both sides, or SS runes on one side with an eagle holding a swastika on the other (not the Luftwaffe eagle). On the other hand, the regular Wehrmacht soldier has a tri-colored shield on one side, while it has the eagle holding the swastika on the other. Also, look at the German planes, swastikas on the tails. Look at the German Naval Ensign of the period, swastika there also. The swastika and runes (occult stuff you know), were painted all over the entire society, so naturally the armed services had it too. This didn't make individuals Nazis, but it sure put out for all the world to see, who was in charge of that nation, so indeed, it's not entirely untrue to refer to the Germans of the period as 'Nazis', because the Nazis not only were in charge, but had their plumage everywhere.
The German armed services never used it in their unit markings....the Iron Cross was the symbol used. Just as the US used a single white star, not the stars-and-bars, the swastika was the national flag, and only appeared as such. True, many German vehicles draped a flag over their vehicles, but only for ID purposes for Luftwaffe pilots.
That's not true. Have you ever seen 'both sides' of the German soldier's helmet? The Waffen-SS had the SS runes one either both sides, or SS runes on one side with an eagle holding a swastika on the other (not the Luftwaffe eagle). On the other hand, the regular Wehrmacht soldier has a tri-colored shield on one side, while it has the eagle holding the swastika on the other. Also, look at the German planes, swastikas on the tails. Look at the German Naval Ensign of the period, swastika there also. The swastika and runes (occult stuff you know), were painted all over the entire society, so naturally the armed services had it too. This didn't make individuals Nazis, but it sure put out for all the world to see, who was in charge of that nation, so indeed, it's not entirely untrue to refer to the Germans of the period as 'Nazis', because the Nazis not only were in charge, but had their plumage everywhere.
You are correct, Charles22. The eagle/swastika was worn on uniforms, helmets, and painted on airplanes; much like the US star-and-bars was worn as a patch by all US military personnel. As a rule, all military units were required to display national symbols for identification. As for the naval ensign, that was a flag, so of course it was the national symbol (as I stated). My point was that the swastika was not used as vehicle markings. In the main, the Iron Cross was the recognized unit marking.
To refer to every German man and woman of the time as a Nazi is incorrect. Less than half the population were card-carrying members of the party. That would be akin to saying that every American in '41 was a Democrat, because that was the political party in power at the time.
I, for one, choose not to use the term 'Nazi' in reference to anyone, without proof that they are, indeed, a member of that ideology.
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To refer to every German man and woman of the time as a Nazi is incorrect. Less than half the population were card-carrying members of the party. That would be akin to saying that every American in '41 was a Democrat, because that was the political party in power at the time.
I, for one, choose not to use the term 'Nazi' in reference to anyone, without proof that they are, indeed, a member of that ideology.
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MECH ENGINEER
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 10:00 am
- Location: Canandaigua, NY, USA
Frank, sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me. Want to know why? Because I'm a man and can hack it. Yes, it is me you,ve whining about. I used the term "Nazi" because the old soldier discussing American tactics was former SS, thus old Nazi. I'm sick of all this political correctness shit. Tell it to me like it is. I spent 19 months sitting in the Fulda Gap with H Co 2/11 ACR and once not did any GERMAN ever thank me. No. Do I whine? No. Did the GERMAN thugs who beat the shit out of me for dare going in their gasthaus. Did they ever say,"sorry". No. Do I whine? No. Do I bear grudges? No. When I used to overhear the old GERMANS males refer to me and my fellow soldiers as "Americanish schiess" or however write out american shit in german. Did they hurt my feelings? No. Do I bear any grudges? No. Are we not men here, can we take it. Or if I post a message do I have to worry about hurting somebodys feelings when I tell it like it is. If I want to offend you, I won't stop at one word. Frank, go to Napster, artist Dennis Leary, song, The Asshole Song. You'll see where I'm coming from.
"When do we get our flamethrowers, Top?"
Flashfyre: I don't get your point about the swastika not being on vehicles except for air identification. BTW, every single soldier also had the eagle and swastika on his uniform, and I believe all officers of every service had it on their caps as well.
If your point is that the vehicles (those without flags) basically not having swastikas is supposed to say that the army didn't recognise the Nazis, and didn't want anything to do with them, just remember the more important thing, it was on their uniforms, not once, but twice (which doesn't speak for those with Nazi armbands). So why allow themselves to be branded with the Nazi symbol? Perhaps a great many of the army leaders were ignorant enough not to realise that the swastika wasn't just some fashionable symbol.
Tell me, as far as you know, did the army actually set it's foot down about the vehicles, and that's why they basically didn't have swastikas (BTW, the Africa Corp tanks had palm trees with a swastika in the trunk of the tree)? Seems like a pretty futile gesture of defiance when you consider how their uniforms, the very thing they wore, had two swastikas, and also how they swore allegiance to Adolf Hitler, instead of the army's usual vow to the Constitution. If the swastika meant so much to them as to not allow it on the vehicles, then how did they allow it on the uniforms, twice? If you don't know, that's fine, it just seems a bit peculiar.
If your point is that the vehicles (those without flags) basically not having swastikas is supposed to say that the army didn't recognise the Nazis, and didn't want anything to do with them, just remember the more important thing, it was on their uniforms, not once, but twice (which doesn't speak for those with Nazi armbands). So why allow themselves to be branded with the Nazi symbol? Perhaps a great many of the army leaders were ignorant enough not to realise that the swastika wasn't just some fashionable symbol.
Tell me, as far as you know, did the army actually set it's foot down about the vehicles, and that's why they basically didn't have swastikas (BTW, the Africa Corp tanks had palm trees with a swastika in the trunk of the tree)? Seems like a pretty futile gesture of defiance when you consider how their uniforms, the very thing they wore, had two swastikas, and also how they swore allegiance to Adolf Hitler, instead of the army's usual vow to the Constitution. If the swastika meant so much to them as to not allow it on the vehicles, then how did they allow it on the uniforms, twice? If you don't know, that's fine, it just seems a bit peculiar.
A further clarification, Charles22:
The official, recognized (by OKW) national ID marking for German combat vehicles was the Balkenkreuz, or cross. First used in Poland in 1939, it was originally a large white cross, applied to grill plates, open hatches, and shutters, as a cutout metal plate. However, it provided such an excellent aiming point for Polish ATGs, that it was modified by painting the center in the yellow divisional isignia color.
By 1940, the now-recognized white cross with black or grey center became standard on all combat vehicles. It was not used on softskinned or unarmored units, although captured vehicles were marked to aid in identification.
The swastika, on the other hand, was not an official marking. It was painted, sometimes crudely, by the men who manned the vehicles. OKW, by and large, tried to discourage this; they were not entirely successful.
As I stated before, the national flag was used for Luftwaffe ID, during ground-attack missions. Later in the war, when Allied air power ruled, the use of the flag was largely discontinued; in cases where it was not, provisions were usually made to hide or remove it quickly in the event of an air attack.
The marking you refer to (the palm/swastika of the DAK) was a divisional symbol, and was the only one of it's like used anywhere in the Wehrmacht. Not even the Waffen-SS used the swastika; the closest was 5. ss Pz. Div. Wiking. Their divisional marking was a "sunwheel".
So, in essence, the German High Command did not accept the swastika as a valid military ID marking. Units which used it were not authorized to do so, but were also not reprimanded for it.
To reiterate: the Nationalist Party's symbol, the swastika, was rarely used on Heer vehicles; nor did the SS use it. RGG, or the Regiment General Goring, did not use it. It's use on vehicles was, in general, unauthorized; it's use on uniforms was, as a rule, to denote the nation to which the soldier belonged.
As to the reasons why the military wore the swastika on their uniforms, but not on their tanks, lies in the history of the Balkenkreuz itself. It was modified from the WWI-era Maltese Cross, used on German airplanes and vehicles in that Great War. Like most military arms, the Wehrmacht was resistant to change it's markings. But the use of the new NSDAP symbol was accepted, mainly due to Hitler's successful wooing of the High Command. Promises of expansion, new weapons, and a return to nationalist ideals convinced many that Hitler was the right man for the job. How misguided they were.
The German military commanders were not in defiance of the Nazi party; they embraced it early on, with the intent to curb Hitler and his lieutenants if they became too powerful.
A final point: only high Party members wore the armbands; it was not a military uniform article, regardless of what you may have seen in the movies. It WAS dress apparel for Hitler, Himmler, Goring, and the like; as well as honor guards, parade participants, and NSDAP special units, such as the SA.
Hope this clears up a few things.
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The official, recognized (by OKW) national ID marking for German combat vehicles was the Balkenkreuz, or cross. First used in Poland in 1939, it was originally a large white cross, applied to grill plates, open hatches, and shutters, as a cutout metal plate. However, it provided such an excellent aiming point for Polish ATGs, that it was modified by painting the center in the yellow divisional isignia color.
By 1940, the now-recognized white cross with black or grey center became standard on all combat vehicles. It was not used on softskinned or unarmored units, although captured vehicles were marked to aid in identification.
The swastika, on the other hand, was not an official marking. It was painted, sometimes crudely, by the men who manned the vehicles. OKW, by and large, tried to discourage this; they were not entirely successful.
As I stated before, the national flag was used for Luftwaffe ID, during ground-attack missions. Later in the war, when Allied air power ruled, the use of the flag was largely discontinued; in cases where it was not, provisions were usually made to hide or remove it quickly in the event of an air attack.
The marking you refer to (the palm/swastika of the DAK) was a divisional symbol, and was the only one of it's like used anywhere in the Wehrmacht. Not even the Waffen-SS used the swastika; the closest was 5. ss Pz. Div. Wiking. Their divisional marking was a "sunwheel".
So, in essence, the German High Command did not accept the swastika as a valid military ID marking. Units which used it were not authorized to do so, but were also not reprimanded for it.
To reiterate: the Nationalist Party's symbol, the swastika, was rarely used on Heer vehicles; nor did the SS use it. RGG, or the Regiment General Goring, did not use it. It's use on vehicles was, in general, unauthorized; it's use on uniforms was, as a rule, to denote the nation to which the soldier belonged.
As to the reasons why the military wore the swastika on their uniforms, but not on their tanks, lies in the history of the Balkenkreuz itself. It was modified from the WWI-era Maltese Cross, used on German airplanes and vehicles in that Great War. Like most military arms, the Wehrmacht was resistant to change it's markings. But the use of the new NSDAP symbol was accepted, mainly due to Hitler's successful wooing of the High Command. Promises of expansion, new weapons, and a return to nationalist ideals convinced many that Hitler was the right man for the job. How misguided they were.
The German military commanders were not in defiance of the Nazi party; they embraced it early on, with the intent to curb Hitler and his lieutenants if they became too powerful.
A final point: only high Party members wore the armbands; it was not a military uniform article, regardless of what you may have seen in the movies. It WAS dress apparel for Hitler, Himmler, Goring, and the like; as well as honor guards, parade participants, and NSDAP special units, such as the SA.
Hope this clears up a few things.
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I must confess I want to advertise the hell out of SPWAW but when it comes to people I know personally, I am unwilling to mention it because of the SS guy as the logo. I don't like it, I'm embarrassed by it, and by no means is the SS guy the whole, half, or main reason I play SPWAW. The SS guy plays only a limited (yet overly glorified) function in SPWAW. I'd much rather see a tank or tanks be the logo for "STEEL PANTHERS" than some evil Nazi infantryman. Hell, if you want an infantryman to represent "STEEL PANTHERS" then use a Wermacht soldier at least...
But I'm guessing a PANTHER TANK might make a better logo, but that's just me!
But I'm guessing a PANTHER TANK might make a better logo, but that's just me!
Mech Engeneer wrote:
Frank, sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me. Want to know why? Because I'm a man and can hack it. Yes, it is me you,ve whining about. I used the term "Nazi" because the old soldier discussing American tactics was former SS, thus old Nazi (Really? read topic about waffen SS). I'm sick of all this political correctness shit (Great: don´t care about what other persons might think or feel: that is a bit of a Nazi, isn´t it? ). Tell it to me like it is. I spent 19 months sitting in the Fulda Gap with H Co 2/11 ACR and once not did any GERMAN ever thank me (Thank you very much!). No. Do I whine? No (Sure?). Did the GERMAN thugs who beat the shit out of me for dare going in their gasthaus. Did they ever say,"sorry" (Sorry. Nobody should be beaten!). No. Do I whine? No (Yes). Do I bear grudges (Yes)? No. When I used to overhear the old GERMANS males refer to me and my fellow soldiers as "Americanish schiess" or however write out american shit in german ("Scheiss"). Did they hurt my feelings (of course they did)? No. Do I bear any grudges (of course you do)? No. Are we not men here, can we take it( Do we have to?). Or if I post a message do I have to worry about hurting somebodys feelings when I tell it like it is. ...
This is exactly the point,Mech Engeneer, you think it is so, you don´t think that it WAS so.
You have a problem with Germany and the Germans. That is the point.
[This message has been edited by Frank (edited December 27, 2000).]
Frank, sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me. Want to know why? Because I'm a man and can hack it. Yes, it is me you,ve whining about. I used the term "Nazi" because the old soldier discussing American tactics was former SS, thus old Nazi (Really? read topic about waffen SS). I'm sick of all this political correctness shit (Great: don´t care about what other persons might think or feel: that is a bit of a Nazi, isn´t it? ). Tell it to me like it is. I spent 19 months sitting in the Fulda Gap with H Co 2/11 ACR and once not did any GERMAN ever thank me (Thank you very much!). No. Do I whine? No (Sure?). Did the GERMAN thugs who beat the shit out of me for dare going in their gasthaus. Did they ever say,"sorry" (Sorry. Nobody should be beaten!). No. Do I whine? No (Yes). Do I bear grudges (Yes)? No. When I used to overhear the old GERMANS males refer to me and my fellow soldiers as "Americanish schiess" or however write out american shit in german ("Scheiss"). Did they hurt my feelings (of course they did)? No. Do I bear any grudges (of course you do)? No. Are we not men here, can we take it( Do we have to?). Or if I post a message do I have to worry about hurting somebodys feelings when I tell it like it is. ...
This is exactly the point,Mech Engeneer, you think it is so, you don´t think that it WAS so.
You have a problem with Germany and the Germans. That is the point.
[This message has been edited by Frank (edited December 27, 2000).]
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
Hi folks!, I'm from Brazil and we fought against Germany in WWII but it was 55 years ago!!, I think that this kind of discussion makes no sense here. This is forum to support this great game and I don't believe that among you all we can find revisionist, neo-nazis or neo-something!!!
I personally like to play with the Germans and I don't care if we use a swastika or SS-runes icons. they are historical symbols and if I remember, the skull and bones was the insignia of Prussian Hussards!
This is only a game and if we play with human opponents we can take the spirit of the game. I can call my pal "Tommie" and he can calls me "Kraut", "hun", "Nazi pig" and if we meet after a match we can sit togheter and drink a lot and have fun!!!
What's the problem?????
Let's take this forum out of political discussion!!!
Merry Christmas and happy new year!!!
Senta à Pua!!!
I personally like to play with the Germans and I don't care if we use a swastika or SS-runes icons. they are historical symbols and if I remember, the skull and bones was the insignia of Prussian Hussards!
This is only a game and if we play with human opponents we can take the spirit of the game. I can call my pal "Tommie" and he can calls me "Kraut", "hun", "Nazi pig" and if we meet after a match we can sit togheter and drink a lot and have fun!!!
What's the problem?????
Let's take this forum out of political discussion!!!
Merry Christmas and happy new year!!!
Senta à Pua!!!
Rhone: Wargaming is a difficult enough breed for most people to fathom. I used to read a lot on WWII (particularly about Germany), and what did I get for treatment? Many people would commonly call me a Nazi and so forth, because they were ignorant, stupid people, who saw no point in knowing history of regimes which managed to deceive an awful lot of people. Why should they? They were busy about letting themselves be deceived in various ways. Why to imply that to try to know something beyond the very basest things was an affront to their system, hence the chastisement. From where I stand, if you remove the SS soldier and put a Panther instead, you'll receive the very same treatment, particularly if they find out that the tank is German from the WWII era. If they find you play wargames, this will make you even worse of a 'maniac', or whatever word they wish to call you, so as to ridicule something they don't want to understand.
That's a good (if not sad) point. But I still think a Panther is more intimidating than an SS any day of the week...but that doesn't really help the argument any. I guess the big dilemna would be the actual title of the game is not meant for everyone. In the end I guess I don't mind, and as a singular gamer, that's just fine with me.From where I stand, if you remove the SS soldier and put a Panther instead, you'll receive the very same treatment, particularly if they find out that the tank is German from the WWII era.
Good post, Charles.
Charles 22:
Pretty strong stuff. "...because they were ignorant, stupid people, who saw no point in knowing history of regimes..." Most of the very few (mostly my family, go figure) folks that gave me grief about my interest in history did so because they thought history was boring. Their loss. Also, I was usually quick witted enough to heap enough coals of scorn on their heads so that they usually left me alone. On the other hand, being a typical smart-assed teenager, studying and talking about history was my version of listening to punk rock. My family didn't understand it and were vaguely disturbed by it. Teen heaven.
MechEngineer:
Bummer. It sounds like you had a rotten time in Germany. Several of my friends served in Germany and they loved it. A couple even married German women and stayed after their enlistment was up. A jerky highschool classmate of mine joined the Rangers to "become a man". Well, it sort of worked, he was a manly jerk. While stationed in Italy he propositioned the wrong woman, at the wrong time, in the wrong bar and promptly got the snot beat out of him...not that there's a connection or anything.
Game Iconography:
Yeah, I'm a little bothered by the preponderance of Nazi images in the game. But then, I take a deep breath and remind myself that it is a game. I guess what bothers me is the audio file that cues up when the SPWAW home page is loaded. I have long since bookmarked the forum page, but still I wonder... Why is there a sound bite from one of Hitler's speeches? Why didn't they use part of Churchill's "We shall fight on the beaches" speech? Or better yet, his "So many to so few" speech Or how about a reading from Eisenhower's (sp?) letter taking responsiblity for the Normandy invasion in case it failed? There are so many better, more noble, words said during the war that I wonder why Matrix picked this BS "Call to Power" stuff.
That's my opinion.
Lou
[This message has been edited by Lou (edited December 27, 2000).]
Pretty strong stuff. "...because they were ignorant, stupid people, who saw no point in knowing history of regimes..." Most of the very few (mostly my family, go figure) folks that gave me grief about my interest in history did so because they thought history was boring. Their loss. Also, I was usually quick witted enough to heap enough coals of scorn on their heads so that they usually left me alone. On the other hand, being a typical smart-assed teenager, studying and talking about history was my version of listening to punk rock. My family didn't understand it and were vaguely disturbed by it. Teen heaven.
MechEngineer:
Bummer. It sounds like you had a rotten time in Germany. Several of my friends served in Germany and they loved it. A couple even married German women and stayed after their enlistment was up. A jerky highschool classmate of mine joined the Rangers to "become a man". Well, it sort of worked, he was a manly jerk. While stationed in Italy he propositioned the wrong woman, at the wrong time, in the wrong bar and promptly got the snot beat out of him...not that there's a connection or anything.
Game Iconography:
Yeah, I'm a little bothered by the preponderance of Nazi images in the game. But then, I take a deep breath and remind myself that it is a game. I guess what bothers me is the audio file that cues up when the SPWAW home page is loaded. I have long since bookmarked the forum page, but still I wonder... Why is there a sound bite from one of Hitler's speeches? Why didn't they use part of Churchill's "We shall fight on the beaches" speech? Or better yet, his "So many to so few" speech Or how about a reading from Eisenhower's (sp?) letter taking responsiblity for the Normandy invasion in case it failed? There are so many better, more noble, words said during the war that I wonder why Matrix picked this BS "Call to Power" stuff.
That's my opinion.
Lou
[This message has been edited by Lou (edited December 27, 2000).]
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David Heath
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 5:00 pm
I must jump in here and say that I agree with Frank on the taste issue. I must also say you can not take Hitler out or other unpleasnt events from WW2. We used that Hitler speech since its was the speech given as the war started. I do not think we should forget anything that happened on either the Axis or Allied side. If you go and remove Hitler or the unpleasant events this only helps to aid people in forgetting what has happened. Remember it not just the parts of WW2 you like but the full story that makes the whole history.
David
David
Sorry, the Nazi Swastika is a mirrored version of this ancient symbol, and therefore a unique symbol. This symbol was part of ancient worship of the sun, and this is what it represent. Although both the Suncross (or "sunwheel") and the Swastika have found in Europe for thousands of years it seems that NSDAP got its inspiration to the Swastika from India, where it also is a symbol for luck, although mirrored it didnt prove so lucky...(or perhaps it did in the end).Originally posted by JTGEN:
Other thing is signes. If you see a swastika and automatically think nazi's it is in your head. It is an ancient symbol widely used in history. For example Finnish airforce marking of blue swastika on white had nothing to do with nazi's. It was used when hitler was still in WW 1 ditchess and the nazi parti did not even exist.
The Finish Swastika is not mirrored, but the correct symbol. The reason it is in the Air Force insignia is that the Swedish count who gave the Finnish "White" air force its first aircraft during the Finnish Civil War had the symbol in his coat of arms (predating the NSDAP comfortably).
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The MSG
[This message has been edited by The MSG (edited December 27, 2000).]
"Arf! Arf! Thats my other dog impression."
-Oddball
-Oddball