New planes

[afenelon]

It seems that the Editor allows the game to run after 1946. In this case, what happens with planes that appeared after 1945 or (in the Japanese case) would
have appeared after 1945?

For Japan: Rita (G8N); Ki-83; Ki-201; Kikka; Ki-94; J7W; A7M; A6M8???

For US: F8F; F-80; F7F; F-82; Skyraider; B-36?

-If they aren´t in the database, it will be possible to edit them????
-Will we fight until 1948 with Ki-84´s???

[Mr.Frag]

There is nothing stopping you from adding pretty much anything through the editor, but understand that the formulas will probably start doing some strange things when you start attacking Japan directly from Seattle with B-52's...

[RevRick]

Just give me some of Symingtons B-36's. They would be enough, don't you think?
What I would love to see is a USMC VMF with the F7F. That would not be a nice thing for any beach head I can think of.

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

The game is hard coded to end in mid-forty seven, I think. We did code limited support for jet aircraft and if some one added them to the data base, they would function differently than prop-aircraft.

Bye...

Michael Wood
__________________________________________________________________

It seems that the Editor allows the game to run after 1946. In this case, what happens with planes that appeared after 1945 or (in the Japanese case) would
have appeared after 1945?

For Japan: Rita (G8N); Ki-83; Ki-201; Kikka; Ki-94; J7W; A7M; A6M8???

For US: F8F; F-80; F7F; F-82; Skyraider; B-36?

-If they aren´t in the database, it will be possible to edit them????
-Will we fight until 1948 with Ki-84´s???

[afenelon]

Hello...

The game is hard coded to end in mid-forty seven, I think. We did code limited support for jet aircraft and if some one added them to the data base, they would function differently than prop-aircraft.

Bye...

Michael Wood
__________________________________________________________________

-But, if you want the game to end in mid 47, it was expected at least to have the F-80 (and maybe the Ki-201) in operation. What do you want to say by "function differently than prop aircraft"? And what about graphics? When I create my Ritas, I can create an archive with the graphics for Rita (there will be a separate archive for each plane?), or I will have to modify a default archive and backup the originals?

[afenelon]

There is nothing stopping you from adding pretty much anything through the editor, but understand that the formulas will probably start doing some strange things when you start attacking Japan directly from Seattle with B-52's...

-Hmmm....I wasn´t being so ambitious....just wanting to have my Ki-83´s and Ki-201´s intercepting B-29´s, maybe some Ritas making night attacks on B-29 bases in Iwo Jima and Guam...

[Hornblower]

afenelon, if as mike said the game is hardcoded to end by mid'47, I've allready decided - think - to edit in the ships that were commissioned from 8'45 onward. As of my count thats 3 CVB's 6 CV's 2 CVL's @6 CAs' etc etc. -Hum maybe i won't do that! I don't know what I would do with say the F8F-Bearcat, as of yet. I'm perfecting my worm hole, so that if the war does go that long I'm going to get he TR, Truman, Lincoln, and Nimitz battle groups from the Gulf... Mass Kamikaze wave this is an Aegis Cruiser, Aegis - Divine wind. Humm, wonder if General Dynamics is geared up to supply SM-2 missiles in '47??? I'll need reloads.....

[Mike Scholl]

Seems like a good time to inject an ugly dose of reality into this discussion.
The sad but true fact was that even by the late stages of the actual war the
Japanese were already beginning to design better aircraft than their relatively
undeveloped industrial base could build. No matter how promising a few hand
crafted prototypes looked, in mass production they would have proven much
less capable. And the quality/quantity gap would just widen. The "quality"
and "craftsmanship" that are associated with Japanese products today are a
post-war phenomonon. With the exception of sword-making, it didn't exist
prior to the mid-fifties. If the game is accurate, those "advanced" Japanese
designs everybody is excited about would have been faulty in performance
and extremely high in attrition.

[afenelon]

Seems like a good time to inject an ugly dose of reality into this discussion.
The sad but true fact was that even by the late stages of the actual war the
Japanese were already beginning to design better aircraft than their relatively
undeveloped industrial base could build. No matter how promising a few hand
crafted prototypes looked, in mass production they would have proven much
less capable. And the quality/quantity gap would just widen. The "quality"
and "craftsmanship" that are associated with Japanese products today are a
post-war phenomonon. With the exception of sword-making, it didn't exist
prior to the mid-fifties. If the game is accurate, those "advanced" Japanese
designs everybody is excited about would have been faulty in performance
and extremely high in attrition.

-Agree with you, however, this already happened with Japanese aircraft that entered in production in the last year of the war, like the Ki-84, which was almost as good as the best US fighters, but which had poor production standards and high attrition level. How this will be modelled in the game? On the other side, if the war went better for IJN (for instance, a victory in Midway), then the strategic bombings against Japan would be delayed for one year or more and the Japanese industry would be in much better shape, and so would be easier to make those advanced planes. Another point is that despite all those shortcomings the Japanese REALLY produced some planes which were as good or better than their allied counterparts (I would mention here the H8K2, B6N, B7N, P1Y and Ki-67). Another point is that, even if the Ki-83 and the J7W, for instance, suffered from the same production troubles, as say, the Ki-84, they still would do better than A6M´s and Ki-45´s.

[Mike Scholl]

-Agree with you, however, this already happened with Japanese aircraft that entered in production in the last year of the war, like the Ki-84, which was almost as good as the best US fighters, but which had poor production standards and high attrition level. How this will be modelled in the game? On the other side, if the war went better for IJN (for instance, a victory in Midway), then the strategic bombings against Japan would be delayed for one year or more and the Japanese industry would be in much better shape, and so would be easier to make those advanced planes. Another point is that despite all those shortcomings the Japanese REALLY produced some planes which were as good or better than their allied counterparts (I would mention here the H8K2, B6N, B7N, P1Y and Ki-67). Another point is that, even if the Ki-83 and the J7W, for instance, suffered from the same production troubles, as say, the Ki-84, they still would do better than A6M´s and Ki-45´s.

Problem is that it wasn't just the effects of strategic bombing. The Japanese
Industrial base was narrow and underdeveloped and incapable of performing
many advanced industrial and metalurgical processes on a large scale. Wonder-
ful example are the Yamatos---they were designed to feature all welded con-
struction to achieve strength and save weight. But Japanese welding tech-
nology was so poor that they wound up getting 3 million plus rivets each in
addition to being welded to keep them from falling apart at sea. Quality control
in making advanced alloys was poor, machine tools were sub-par by US stand-
ards, and skilled labor lacking. Which is why the average US aircraft worker
produced 4 times as much as the average Japanese aircraft worker---and of
higher quality. Japan's economic weakness was not just fewer factories or lack
of materials but the overall weakness of her scientific, engineering, and indus-
trial base.

[TIMJOT]

. The "quality" and "craftsmanship" that are associated with Japanese products today are a
post-war phenomonon. With the exception of sword-making, it didn't exist
prior to the mid-fifties.

Mike

Although I agree with you overall premise. I think you may be exagerating a bit to make your point.

I submit to you some pre-war "quality" and "craftmanship" examples

1. Optics
2. O2 torpedos
3. Smokless/flashless powder.

Quality or craftmanship wasnt so much the problems as was "quality mass production".

[RevRick]

aircraft rely on quality mass production, as do most components of ships - especially those engineered to high tolerances.

[Nikademus]

Japanese "Craftmanship" did not begin to 'signifigantly' suffer quality control issues until later in the war when Japan attempted to rev up it's production.

When working within the confines of it's limited industrial base, the Japanese were able to produce designs and weapons of fine quality.....they just couldn't do it and quickly mass produce at the same time. Thats where their industrial weakness began to show. The US and other Western powers with their larger and more developed industrial bases were able to do both. Even Germany could have done it had their economy not been so mismanaged from the start. (though never to the level that the US could)

[mdiehl]

this already happened with Japanese aircraft that entered in production in the last year of the war, like the Ki-84, which was almost as good as the best US fighters, but which had poor production standards and high attrition level.

Well, if you call 60-100 mph slower, less durable, lower airspeed, ceiling, and dive rate "almost as good...." Seriosly, giving credit where due, the Ki-84 was a good make-up attempt. It was the equal of the F6F. It was nowhere near as good a plane as the F4U, P51, various late war UK aircraft, late-model P47s or P38s, the P63, etc., various late war German a/c (late variants of the FW190, and the TA152). The Ki-84 would have been a competitive aircraft in mid 1943. By the time it entered production, it was greatly outclassed.

The problem wasn't Japanese "craftsmanship" per se. It was conflicting requirements and a ocntinued confusion about the best characteristics of a fighter. Even in the late war Japanese a/c designers wer sacrificing robustness for lighter weight, hence the various landing gear problems. Related to that was the inability to design a first class high thrust-to-weight radial engine that could run on the mediocre gasoline used by Japan. This affected HP at all altitudes, and made high-altitude performance of Japanese a/c problematic throughout the war.

[afenelon]

Well, if you call 60-100 mph slower, less durable, lower airspeed, ceiling, and dive rate "almost as good...." Seriosly, giving credit where due, the Ki-84 was a good make-up attempt. It was the equal of the F6F. It was nowhere near as good a plane as the F4U, P51, various late war UK aircraft, late-model P47s or P38s, the P63, etc., various late war German a/c (late variants of the FW190, and the TA152). The Ki-84 would have been a competitive aircraft in mid 1943. By the time it entered production, it was greatly outclassed.

-60-100mph slower???? Where did you get those statistics.

-Here are mine:

F6F: 600km/h
Ki-84: 630km/h
F4U-1: 660km/h
P-38: 660km/h
P-47: 670km/h
P-51D: 710km/h

1mile=1,6km/h

So, the Ki-84 was 20mph faster than the Hellcat, 20mph slower than F4U-1, P-38 and P-47 and 50mph slower than the P-51. It could outdive and outclimb the P-47 and the P-38. It has very good firepower (4x20mm gun). It would be able to engage all of US prop driven fighters except, maybe the P-51D, if it had better production standards.

[afenelon]

Here is the Ki-84. It´s interesting to notice that Ki-84´s tested by the USA reached 680km/h. Was it the effect of better quality gasoline????


http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/Hayate.htm

T. Koyama designed the Ki-84 to greater strength factors than any previous Japanese warplane - yet poor heat-treatment of high-strength steel had the consequence that the landing gears often snapped. Progressive deterioration in quality control meant that pilots never knew how individual aircraft would perform, whether the brakes would work, and even whether - in attampting to intercept B-29 Superfortresses over Japan - they would be able to climb high enough.

Despite these problems the Hayate was essentially a superb fighter - a captured Ki-84-1a was to outclimb and outmanoeuvre a P-47 Thunderbolt, and a P-51.

The first batches were sent to China, where the 22nd. Sentai, when equipped with the new fighter, were able to fly rings around Chennault's 14th. Air Force.

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/b ... ki-84.html

The Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (Gale) was numerically the most important fighter serving with the Japanese Army Air Force (JAAF) during the last year of the Pacific War, and was probably the best Japanese fighter aircraft to see large-scale operation during this period of the war. The Hayate was fully the equal of even the most advanced Allied fighters which opposed it, and was often their superior in many important respects. It was well armed and armored, was fast, and was very maneuverable. Although it was generally outnumbered by Allied fighters which opposed it, it nevertheless gave a good account of itself in battles over the Philippines, over Okinawa, and over the Japanese home islands. So desperate was the need for Ki-84s in the last months of the war, Japan was building underground factories with a planned rate of 200 aircraft per month.

The FRANK later appeared in the battle for Okinawa, serving with the 101st, 102nd, and 103rd Hiko Sentais. Two new Sentais, the 111th and the 200th were activated with Hayates. The Hayates were used for long-range penetration missions, fighter sweeps, strafing, interception and dive-bombing missions with considerable success. The Ki-84 proved faster than the P-51D Mustang and the P-47D Thunderbolt at all but the highest altitudes. At medium altitudes, the FRANK was so fast that it was essentially immune from interception. The climb rate was exceptionally good, 16,400 feet being attained in 5 minutes 54 seconds, which was superior to that of any opposing Allied fighters. The Ki-84 had a close resemblance to the Ki-43 Hayabusa, which caused many Allied fighter pilots to confuse it with the earlier Nakajima fighter during the stress of combat. Many an American pilot, having sighted a Japanese fighter he believed to be a Ki-43 and salivating at the prospect of a quick and easy kill, suddenly found he had latched onto a different bird entirely. The Ki-84 even did well at the fighter-bomber role. On April 15, 1945, a flight of eleven Hayates from the 100th Sentai made a surprise air attack on American airfields on Okinawa, damaging or destroying a substantial number of aircraft on the ground. However, eight of the Hayates were destroyed in the attack, and one made a forced landing on a small islet near Kyushu.

However, most of the defects with the Ki-84 can be laid to poor quality control during manufacture, especially during the last few months of the Pacific war. When the Ki-84 was being designed, emphasis had been placed on ease of production, and the manufacture of the Ki-84 required less than half the tooling needed by the Ki-43 and Ki-44 which preceded it. However, many experienced workers had been drafted into the military, and this loss, acting in concert with the accelerated rates of production ordered by the Japanese Ministry of Munitions, resulted in a steady drop in quality standards of both the engine and the airframe of the Hayate as the war progressed. The performance and reliability of production Hayates was seldom as good as that of the service test machines. As the quality of the workmanship steadily deteriorated, the performance of the Hayate steadily declined as production progressed, with later machines having successively poor and poorer performance and mechanical reliability. The hydraulic and fuel pressure systems were both poorly designed and were subject to frequent failures. The wheel brakes were notoriously unreliable, and the metal of the landing gear struts was often inadequately hardened during manufacture, which made them likely to snap at any time. This caused many Hayates to be written off in landing accidents, without ever having been damaged in combat.

http://www.214th.com/ww2/japan/ki-84/

The Ki-84 Type 4 Hayate (Gale) was "the most outstanding Jap Army Fighter and far ahead of the Oscar, Tony and Tojo... potentially the most dangerous Japanese army fighter plane," according to a mid-1945 U.S. AAF evaluation. The Frank was one of the most formidable Japanese aircraft of the war, being able to outclimb and outmanueuver both the U.S. P-47N Thunderbolt and the P-51H Mustang fighters. It was also employed as a fighter-bomber.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/w ... aki84.html

From the first day that the Hayate was encountered over China, to the last day over Japan, this aircraft was respected by the Allied pilots. And with good reason, for this fighter combined most of the virtues of Japanese aircraft without the vices. It was well armed, maneuverable, well protected, and good performance.
In March 1944 the first unit operatin gthe hayate was pitted against the US 14th Air Force over China, proving that it could compete with the best of the Allied fighters. Some five weeks later these units were transferred to the Philippines, where ten Sentais (Squadrons/units) were to fight a defensive war. Outnumbered, the Ki-84's couldn't prevent the fall of the Philippines to Allied forces, and had to retreat once more. During this period the value of the Hayate was beyond any doubt, and the japanese decided to open other production facilities for it.
The production of the Hayate was put under great strain by bombings of the US 20th Air Force which operated Boeing B-29's. One of the raids destroyed the factory where most engines for the hayate were produced, and the production never reached the same levels afterwards. Also workmanship suffered from the constant draws made by the Army, which was randomly performed under even marksmen. Quality dropped sharply, but even a worsening quality couldn't throw the hayate from it's first place among the Japanese aircraft. During the Okinawa campaign and in the defense of the homeland the Hayate still was the most succesful Japanese aircraft.
After the War flight tests were conducted between Allied and japanese aircraft, and it turned out that the Ki-84 could outperform the best Allied fighters. The North American P-51D Mustang and the Republic P-47D Thunderbolt were both left behind, the first with 3 Mph (5 km/h), the second with 22 Mph (35 km/h). The speed reached by the Ki-84 was 427 Mph (687 km/h) at an altitude of 20,000 ft (6.096 m).

[Mr.Frag]

Related to that was the inability to design a first class high thrust-to-weight radial engine that could run on the mediocre gasoline used by Japan. This affected HP at all altitudes, and made high-altitude performance of Japanese a/c problematic throughout the war.

Nice of you to bring that point in Mdiehl as it is often overlooked.

Japan's problem stemmed from the inability to offer high octane fuel to get the performance out of the engines so there really was little point even making them in the first place. Even had they had F1U's given to them, they would have performed poorly due to the fuel quality. Performance engines require performance fuel. Japan was a tad short of fuel.

[Nikademus]

You make a good point afenelon, in that the whole story is hardly told by just posting 'optimal' stats for a designated airframe, certainly the Ki-84, if properly built and maintained was a formidable opponent. Everything i've read about it from pilot accounts always gave it healthy respect.

The point being made (i'd like to think ) is that formidable is not good enough in this case. Germany also had formidable weapons too but in the end was crushed by the attrtion war generated and ironically suffered the same problem that Japan did only slower...(i.e. her pilot cadre was exhausted and could not be replaced with fully trained replacements)

Even with properly working Ki-84's you'll still need competant pilots to man them so any what if scenerio where 2nd gen Japanese aircraft are assumed to be built in appreciable #'s will also have to do a "SC-19" and assume a larger pilot cadre to man them.

Even then, they'll still face an uphill battle vs a larger and technologically sound enemy. Thats the issue....its not enough to just say, lets put a bunch of 2nd gen IJN/A aircraft in a scenerio

It would make for a more competetive game though, i expect we'll see mods like this after the game is released. Personally i want to see the F8F in action.....i loved flying this plane in the old Aces of the Pacific add on module

[afenelon]

You make a good point afenelon, in that the whole story is hardly told by just posting 'optimal' stats for a designated airframe, certainly the Ki-84, if properly built and maintained was a formidable opponent. Everything i've read about it from pilot accounts always gave it healthy respect.

The point being made (i'd like to think ) is that formidable is not good enough in this case. Germany also had formidable weapons too but in the end was crushed by the attrtion war generated and ironically suffered the same problem that Japan did only slower...(i.e. her pilot cadre was exhausted and could not be replaced with fully trained replacements)

-I agree with you completely. No Ki-83, Ki-201, Ki-94 or whatever you want would never had prevented the Japanese from being defeated. Maybe a combination of a victory in Midway, better ASW warfare and 4 Shokakus instead of 2 Yamatos would have allowed them to fight more 2-3 years....maybe....but the USA would have won the war by sheer numbers even if they didn´t replace the F4F and the P-40. Industrial capacity superiority was simply overhelming. Still, I would like to explore some alternative scenarios (like a no Midway or IJN victory at Midway). In this case, the war could have ended in 1947, and strategic bombings would start latter....and be faced with better IJN fighters. An invasion of Philipines in 1946 could have faced A7M´s and Graces, a strategic bombing campaign could have faced J7W´s and so on. They won´t change the games too much (because the USA also will get better fighters), but we can have more fun.

Even then, they'll still face an uphill battle vs a larger and technologically sound enemy. Thats the issue....its not enough to just say, lets put a bunch of 2nd gen IJN/A aircraft in a scenerio

-Again you´re right, mas I´m not intending to make the IJN win (but night bombings by Ritas would be wonderful for Axis fanboys, right???)

It would make for a more competetive game though, i expect we'll see mods like this after the game is released. Personally i want to see the F8F in action.....i loved flying this plane in the old Aces of the Pacific add on module

-I usually flew the Ki-83....but my favorite was the J7W. It´s interesting to notice that the Kikka in AOP was a fighter but it was actually designed as a bomber.

[Nikademus]

I wrote a story a while back where the A7M2 Reppu, piloted by the last of Japan's veteran carrier pilots faced off against a VF of F8F Bearcats. (the actual combat i modeled out using PacWar)

it was an intriguing matchup......both sides scored well....the Reppu's manned by the veterans more than held their own but were outnumbered. (of course) and the Reppu's piloted by greenies got their butts handed to them.

Bearcats rule but i like the Reppu too.