Beginner Questions

[Tyraxus]

Hi

I just got HCE and Harpoon 3 ANW. I reckoned they are different games, but they look the same. My take is HCE is a bit more "fleet scale" and H3 ANW focuses more on closer combat.

Anyway, I played GIUK mission 2 (since mission 1 (the walkthrough) is not playable, different positions than the manual, etc. I started playing mission 2 with USSR, the gauntlet, and it is excruciatingly hard to win as the soviets.

Are there any other scenarios except the included ones? Those are kind of ... dry. And hard!

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: Tyraxus
Anyway, I played GIUK mission 2 (since mission 1 (the walkthrough) is not playable, different positions than the manual, etc. I started playing mission 2 with USSR, the gauntlet, and it is excruciatingly hard to win as the soviets. Are there any other scenarios except the included ones? Those are kind of ... dry. And hard!

You've played through over 250 scenarios already? [X(] [:D]

If you're hungry for more, there are a boatload of user created scenarios at HarpGamer.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Tyraxus

I just got HCE and Harpoon 3 ANW. I reckoned they are different games, but they look the same. My take is HCE is a bit more "fleet scale" and H3 ANW focuses more on closer combat.

You can do some pretty direct comparison between the games as many of the Harpoon Classic scenarios have been re-made for use with ANW. Harpoon ANW users can get the Complete Harpoon ANW Library

Just let me know if you want a game of ANW MP.

Welcome aboard, shipmate. [8D]

[VictorInThePacific]

GIUK 1 (blue) should be playable because (spoiler !) even if your groups start in variable locations, the RED group orders are set in such a way that your groups will meet them, as long as you follow the recommendations. Or just use the scenario to do some experiments. The RED forces can't hurt you much. BTW, you have tankers!

GIUK 2 is probably harder as the Soviets, if only because the forces are all (mostly) single-purpose, and not coordinated.

Try MEDC 1 (BLUE). Lots of ships, but only missile boats. PLUS you get one helicopter.

Try WestPac 1,2,3 (BLUE).

And (spoiler alert !) check out some of the AARs.

[Tzar007]

I have bought HCE 2 days ago, and I also found out the GIUK scenario walkthrough 1 is unplayable: even following the course directions of the tutorial and then crisscrossing like a mad man the Norway sea I could not detect any enemy at all. Maybe I wasn't lucky, I should try again.

In any case, I then played GIUK 2 (Gauntlet) as NATO and had quite a lot of fun. I was even nervous when I first got into a fight with the Soviets ! After managing to sink one Soviet ship with missiles, I got carried away by excitement and decided to send 2 helicos with Sea Skua ASM missiles to attack the other Soviet frigate. Needless to say I watched, completely horrified, the Soviet ship fired Gecko SAM and promptly shot down both of my Lynx helicos. How stupid is that ? I could not believe I didn't realize slow-moving helicos just did not stand a chance... I lost also a SeaHawk by forgetting to ground it while my fleet was very close to the Soviet ship. He fired another Gecko and gone was the Seahawk. Beginners' mistakes, I guess.

But it seems to me this is a great strategy game, I think I am going to enjoy this and the amount of scenarios is mind-boggling. I need to continue to read the manual, there is too much stuff I am not sure or don't understand yet.

[CV32]

Welcome to HCE, Tzar007. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

I would say that even from your experience in GIUK 2, you're starting to learn rather quickly that a scenario can play quite differently depending on the tactics you employ and the positions of the opposing forces.

Feel free to post further comments or questions as they arise. [8D]

[Tzar007]

I'm playing GIUK 3 now as NATO, and I sunk a Charlie class, but got an OH Perry frigate of mine sunk too.

Question: the Soviets fired 3 torpedos at the OH Perry frigate. I would have liked to tell the frigate to change course and try some evasive maneuvers, maybe launch some kind of decoy, but then I realize there is no control of individual ships in HCE so there was nothing I could do. Is that the difference between H3 ANW and HCE, i.e. in H3 ANW you can control individual ships ?

[hermanhum]

It is possible to manipulate individual ships in either ANW or HCE.  However, all ships in HCE are formed into 'groups'.  Therefore, you handle it like a single-ship group.  It can be a bit awkward, but is definitely possible.  Decoys are employed automatically and do not require manual intervention.

Welcome aboard, shipmate.  [8D]

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: Tyraxus

Hi

I just got HCE and Harpoon 3 ANW. I reckoned they are different games, but they look the same. My take is HCE is a bit more "fleet scale" and H3 ANW focuses more on closer combat.

Anyway, I played GIUK mission 2 (since mission 1 (the walkthrough) is not playable, different positions than the manual, etc. I started playing mission 2 with USSR, the gauntlet, and it is excruciatingly hard to win as the soviets.

Are there any other scenarios except the included ones? Those are kind of ... dry. And hard!

WestPac 1.0 is a great super basic intro to the game and gives you a taste of land, sea, submarine, and air combat. GIUK 1.0 is definitely playable, I play it fairly often as a check that old stuff is working but WestPac 1.0 will give you a nice view of some of the changes to the game made in the last decade

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

I'm playing GIUK 3 now as NATO, and I sunk a Charlie class, but got an OH Perry frigate of mine sunk too.

Question: the Soviets fired 3 torpedos at the OH Perry frigate. I would have liked to tell the frigate to change course and try some evasive maneuvers, maybe launch some kind of decoy, but then I realize there is no control of individual ships in HCE so there was nothing I could do. Is that the difference between H3 ANW and HCE, i.e. in H3 ANW you can control individual ships ?

The design idea of HC would be to move the Perry within the formation editor or put the whole group running like mad. It is meant to be more broad than nitpicking every single unit (though unfortunately sometimes you have to direct invidual units). Still you could have split the Perry into its own group, placed it at the center of the formation, and given it a new specific course and speed.

The Split Group command is in the Orders menu, or look at the hotkey sheet linked at tm.asp?m=2090390.

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: Tzar007
Question: the Soviets fired 3 torpedos at the OH Perry frigate. I would have liked to tell the frigate to change course and try some evasive maneuvers, maybe launch some kind of decoy, but then I realize there is no control of individual ships in HCE so there was nothing I could do.

You can control individual ships in HCE, no problem. In your case you could have:

(1) split the Perry from the formation, so that it operated alone and could maneuver alone, or

(2) using the Formation Editor, re-assign the Perry to another part of the formation opposite the incoming torpedoes (e.g. torpedoes incoming from North, so Perry heads to South side of the formation), and it will move there at maximum speed. This usually is sufficient to outrun most torpedoes, but it depends, of course, on the size of the formation and the type of torpedo (doesn't work so well against Type 65 heavyweights).

[Tzar007]

Thanks guys for the feedback ! I now understand the purpose of the ungroup button... I'll certainly try this next time.

Sorry to bug you with other questions but I could not find a detailed explanation in the manual: when I decided to attack the Soviet submarine, it asked me whether I wanted to do a standoff ASW or a short-range ASW. What's the difference between both ?

Also, what's the max depth a torpedo or ASW missile can go ? At some point the sonar was telling me the Soviet submarine was at Deep depth and I was wondering if it was going to be a waste of ammunition trying to get it at that depth ? I guess he was diving fast since he certainly heard the noises of the first sub being hit...

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: Tzar007
Sorry to bug you with other questions but I could not find a detailed explanation in the manual: when I decided to attack the Soviet submarine, it asked me whether I wanted to do a standoff ASW or a short-range ASW. What's the difference between both ?

Short range ASW typically refers to airborne lightweight torpedoes (such as those aboard your helicopters or fixed wing aircraft if they are part of the formation), or shipboard torpedoes, though it can also refer to depth charges, RBUs, etc.

Standoff ASW typically refers to longer range weapons, usually torpedoes or depth charges (including nukes) delivered via missile or rocket payload, like the American ASROC or Soviet SS-N-14 Silex.

Also, what's the max depth a torpedo or ASW missile can go ? At some point the sonar was telling me the Soviet submarine was at Deep depth and I was wondering if it was going to be a waste of ammunition trying to get it at that depth ? I guess he was diving fast since he certainly heard the noises of the first sub being hit...

Max depth depends on the weapon in question. Most modern lightweight torpedoes can reach the Deep depth band, but some Soviet/Russian submarines can go even deeper than that. The Platform Editor (PE) that opens the database would tell you more.

I would advise that you check out the 'Shakedown' articles at HarpGamer posted here.

[VictorInThePacific]

Most of the questions posted here have already been answered, so I will only comment on GIUK 1 & 2.

1) GIUK 1 (BLUE) spolier alert

The instructions and the orders for the computer forces put all the units on collision courses with other units. Your sub should encounter 2 enemy ships, provided you move slowly enough for your sonar to work. Your planes should encounter an enemy ship. Your ships should encounter an enemy sub, provided you move slowly enough for your sonar to work, because it is running around the area and is presumably quite noisy.

With the exception of the sub, which might elude you, you should be able to locate all the enemy ships for sure, if you use your airplanes and their search radars. Just fly them over all the sea areas, probably at high altitude. You can keep them in the air indefinitely if you use your tankers.

You really do want to be searching for ships with planes, not ships, for several reasons, even if the scenario instructions don't tell you to do this.

2) GIUK 2 (BLUE)

Trying to get hits on a Nanuchka III with a Sea Skua - armed helicopter is just not going to work under any conceivable circumstances unless you first divert the Geckos. However, there is a safe way of accomplishing this task in this scenario. I have discussed it in the AARs for this scenario.

[sirtwist2]

Greetings,

I have recently started playing the Commander's Edition. I have made it thru the first few GUIK scenarios fairly easily. Now I'm starting to run into some problems. I'm playing only as NATO so far.

I gave up on GUIK scenario 8.0 Rapier. I launched all my Tomahawks, did little to no damage to the bases and had nothing left to do as far as I could tell.

Now, I'm on GUIK scenario 9.0 Takeover. As soon as I start, I go into the Formation editor and get some AAW and ASuW patrols up. I then get two AWACs up. As soon as I do, I get jumped by numerous soviet planes. I'm a little confused by a few things.

1st, why are the AAW weapons so short ranged? Most of the AAW weapons are only 10.0, some are 24.0. Aren't NATO's weapons longer ranged then that?

2nd, how am I getting jumped by so many more planes then I can defend against? One of the 5 groups I can see so far has 18 planes in it. The closest base only has 16 planes and half of them are set up for surface attacks. Wouldn't NATO have some idea of the planes the soviets have in their bases and staff the NATO bases accordingly?

3rdly, the ships I have control of are Oslo's and Storm's. They don't seem up to the task of stopping a soviet amphibious landing. Wouldn't NATO have some better equipped ships in the area if they were expecting an amphibious landing attempt?

Lastly, I can't find any AAR's of either the GUIK 8.0 or 9.0 scenarios. Are there any? Where would I find them, if there are any?

Thanks!

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: sirtwist2
Greetings,
I have recently started playing the Commander's Edition. I have made it thru the first few GUIK scenarios fairly easily. Now I'm starting to run into some problems. I'm playing only as NATO so far. I gave up on GUIK scenario 8.0 Rapier. I launched all my Tomahawks, did little to no damage to the bases and had nothing left to do as far as I could tell.

Rapier is a very difficult scenario, and in fact there are some problems with Victory Conditions and such, that need tweaking. You've discovered some of those issues yourself.

Now, I'm on GUIK scenario 9.0 Takeover. As soon as I start, I go into the Formation editor and get some AAW and ASuW patrols up. I then get two AWACs up. As soon as I do, I get jumped by numerous soviet planes. I'm a little confused by a few things.1st, why are the AAW weapons so short ranged? Most of the AAW weapons are only 10.0, some are 24.0. Aren't NATO's weapons longer ranged then that?

Sounds like you're referencing the Sidewinder and Sparrow air-to-air missiles. And the answer is 'no', NATO did not have weapons longer ranged than that (other than the Phoenix aboard the F-14 Tomcats).

2nd, how am I getting jumped by so many more planes then I can defend against? One of the 5 groups I can see so far has 18 planes in it. The closest base only has 16 planes and half of them are set up for surface attacks. Wouldn't NATO have some idea of the planes the soviets have in their bases and staff the NATO bases accordingly?

NATO was outnumbered in many respects for much of the Cold War. What the Soviets had in quantity, NATO tried to make up for in quality. You're trying to find out if the qualitative edge would have been enough.

3rdly, the ships I have control of are Oslo's and Storm's. They don't seem up to the task of stopping a soviet amphibious landing. Wouldn't NATO have some better equipped ships in the area if they were expecting an amphibious landing attempt?

Maybe, but that depends on what else was going on in theater and elsewhere in the world. There's a good chance that NATO might not have been able to muster enough forces to stop a landing in northern Norway.

Lastly, I can't find any AAR's of either the GUIK 8.0 or 9.0 scenarios. Are there any? Where would I find them, if there are any? Thanks!

I don't know offhand if there are many that have been done in recent years, but you can find a whole series of AAR's that I assembled into somewhat of a storyline for the GIUK, NACV and MEDC battlesets here. Watch out for spoilers.

[sirtwist2]

Thanks for the response!

I guess I thought NATO used, for the most part, US equipment and that US equipment was vastly superior to anything the Soviets had.

I have some more questions, if you don't mind!

The first, I played the orginal Harpoon a little bit years ago and I don't remember missing so much with my air to air missles. I often have to fire 2 to 3 missiles per plane to shoot them down. It doesn't matter whether I use Sidewinder, Sparrow, or Phoenix missiles. I recently played a scenario where I went up against 6 Badger's and fired 16 Sidewinders and ended up shooting the last plane down with cannon fire. I could see missing with some missiles, but 16 against 6 relatively slow bombers?

2ndly, do you have to do anything to start jamming with any jamming aircraft, such as a EA-6B Prowler, EW?

Lastly, I'm considering getting Harpoon 3 - ANW. Is there any significant difference between ANW and the Commander's Edition other then multiplayer?

Thanks!

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: sirtwist2

2ndly, do you have to do anything to start jamming with any jamming aircraft, such as a EA-6B Prowler, EW?

Lastly, I'm considering getting Harpoon 3 - ANW. Is there any significant difference between ANW and the Commander's Edition other then multiplayer?

To enable active jamming in HCE, you must activate the radar of the aircraft/unit equipped with the ECM equipment.

Although both games try to simulate modern naval warfare, there is a significant difference between how ANW and HCE try to simulate many things. You can check out the demo for ANW and see if it fits your needs:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloa ... le&id=1093

You can also check out AGSI's list of Known ANW Issues.

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: sirtwist2
The first, I played the orginal Harpoon a little bit years ago and I don't remember missing so much with my air to air missles. I often have to fire 2 to 3 missiles per plane to shoot them down. It doesn't matter whether I use Sidewinder, Sparrow, or Phoenix missiles. I recently played a scenario where I went up against 6 Badger's and fired 16 Sidewinders and ended up shooting the last plane down with cannon fire. I could see missing with some missiles, but 16 against 6 relatively slow bombers?

It really depends on what battleset you are playing. The EC2003 battleset and the Westpac battleset use the editable HCDB database, which I maintain and which uses mainly Harpoon4 paper rules' values for things like missile probability of hit (pH).

All of the older battlesets use an integrated, non-editable database. Its values for missile pH tend to be lower than that in the HCDB. In other words, its harder to hit in those older battlesets.

[Warhorse64]

ORIGINAL: sirtwist2

The first, I played the orginal Harpoon a little bit years ago and I don't remember missing so much with my air to air missles. I often have to fire 2 to 3 missiles per plane to shoot them down. It doesn't matter whether I use Sidewinder, Sparrow, or Phoenix missiles. I recently played a scenario where I went up against 6 Badger's and fired 16 Sidewinders and ended up shooting the last plane down with cannon fire. I could see missing with some missiles, but 16 against 6 relatively slow bombers?

Well, bombers do tend to have pretty decent countermeasure suites. Also, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, what was the engagement geometry like? When the game tells you you are in range, it does not consider the future motion of the target. Thus, if you shoot from near the extreme range of your missiles, even a relatively slow target like a bomber may be able to generate a miss by turning away and getting beyond the missile's range.