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Harpoon Pasive SOnar Modeling
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:03 am
by parnold
I have been a player of Harpoon for many years now dating back to the DOS days. Recently I re-found Harpoon and bought the Commanders Edition. One thing that I noticed is that passive sonar seems to be much more limited.
An example:
I created a simple scenario where a Seawolf sub and a Victor 3 were at inter level and both paths pointed at each other. I set the Victor to Cruise and the Seawolf to creep. The Seawolf did not detect the Victor until about 20 nm out. It then lost the contact and picked it up at 14 nm out. It did not get a fix until about 5 nm out. This is using the HDS3 Battleset.
The scenario plays out even worse using a Foxtrot, which seems undetectable unless you just about run over it.
Have the rules been tightened up since the old days?
RE: Harpoon Pasive SOnar Modeling
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:50 am
by bilbo8888
ORIGINAL: parnold
I have been a player of Harpoon for many years now dating back to the DOS days. Recently I re-found Harpoon and bought the Commanders Edition. One thing that I noticed is that passive sonar seems to be much more limited.
An example:
I created a simple scenario where a Seawolf sub and a Victor 3 were at inter level and both paths pointed at each other. I set the Victor to Cruise and the Seawolf to creep. The Seawolf did not detect the Victor until about 20 nm out. It then lost the contact and picked it up at 14 nm out. It did not get a fix until about 5 nm out. This is using the HDS3 Battleset.
The scenario plays out even worse using a Foxtrot, which seems undetectable unless you just about run over it.
Have the rules been tightened up since the old days?
hi,
the pick/lost/pick again come from the convergence Zones ( CZ ), tell me if you don't know what they are.
The foxtrot is a diesel/electric subs, less noisy on electric motors than a nuke like the victor, so it looks correct to detect it later.
Hope it helps
See you
RE: Harpoon Pasive SOnar Modeling
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:19 am
by parnold
Thanks, I do understand convergence zones. It seems that it never picks up any subs at the outer CZ.
Back in old Harpoon, subs were the best detection platform. Now, whether it is a sub or ship even if you are creeping you do not know a sub is out there until it fires at you.
RE: Harpoon Pasive SOnar Modeling
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:28 am
by bilbo8888
ORIGINAL: parnold
Thanks, I do understand convergence zones. It seems that it never picks up any subs at the outer CZ.
Back in old Harpoon, subs were the best detection platform. Now, whether it is a sub or ship even if you are creeping you do not know a sub is out there until it fires at you.
Have you read this post ?
tm.asp?m=2619221
I think you have to consider :
- speed of the scouting plateform vs speed of your target
- quality of the sonar used
Personnaly i think the best detection plateform is the patrol helo/airplane cause it moves fast, can use buoy or active deeping sonar, can't be targeted by torps ( !!! )
you have to keep in mind too that's HCE now is much more realistic in many ways ( sonar detection and EW for example )
see you
RE: Harpoon Pasive SOnar Modeling
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:29 pm
by TonyE
ORIGINAL: parnold
Have the rules been tightened up since the old days?
Yes, both the paper rules (H3->H4.1) and the computer games significantly reduced sonar detection ranges with the end of the Cold War. Tweaking passive sonar was my first big undertaking as a HC programmer and while the results are not perfect (not that we know what perfect is), they correspond much better to the current paper rules than the old passive sonar that you remember.
RE: Harpoon Pasive SOnar Modeling
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:23 pm
by CV32
Keep in mind, as well, as that link posted by bilbo8888 details, that the sonar and acoustic signature values will differ considerably between the older battlesets and the newer ones that have editable databases.
RE: Harpoon Pasive SOnar Modeling
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:06 am
by parnold
Thanks. That makes a lot more sense.
RE: Harpoon Pasive SOnar Modeling
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:02 am
by VictorInThePacific
ORIGINAL: parnold
Back in old Harpoon, subs were the best detection platform. Now, whether it is a sub or ship even if you are creeping you do not know a sub is out there until it fires at you.
Various people have given you reasonable, rational responses to this point.
I think perhaps a better response is a simple "yes", accompanied by the sound of hysterical laughter and my head banging against a brick wall.
Not only do subs now have the capacity to remain completely invisible, but recently I had an Oliver Hazard Perry frigate (creeping) sunk by a completely invisible torpedo, and then I found out that that could be expected to happen about 25% of the time.