Sorry, but this is wrong

Harpoon Ultimate Edition is the best and most comprehensive compilation of computer Harpoon games ever assembled! The two flagship products in the Harpoon line up, Advanced Naval Warfare and Commanders Edition come highly expanded and improved from their previous versions. More than twenty classic versions of Harpoon are also included! Harpoon - Ultimate Edition is the most powerful and complete modern naval warfare simulation on the market and a must have for any Harpoon fan!
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NefariousKoel
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by NefariousKoel »

ORIGINAL: Stratocruiser

The notion that older software can be supported and updated for ever without ever charging anything at all is simply preposterous. Some people really need to make a reality check.

I don't expect something to be supported indefinitely and I don't think many here are arguing for that.

The source of contention is the varying opinions on how long and in what state should earlier versions be updated and, notably, how stable and relatively bug-free it should be before moving on to newer versions and charging anew.
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keeferon01
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by keeferon01 »

I dont understand why this was released , Red Pill is just around the corner which kind of makes these two look silly .
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jomni
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by jomni »

Red Pill is looking good but what about the content? They tried to beat Harpoon before with Global Conflict Blue but there weren't much content (don't know the state of GCB now).
I think RP will take time to mature.  They're not even done with GCB and now they go developing RP...
Dimitris
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: jomni
Red Pill is looking good but what about the content? They tried to beat Harpoon before with Global Conflict Blue but there weren't much content (don't know the state of GCB now).
I think RP will take time to mature.  They're not even done with GCB and now they go developing RP...
Red Pill and (the excellent) GCB are different projects being developed by two completely separate groups.
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jomni
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by jomni »

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
ORIGINAL: jomni
Red Pill is looking good but what about the content? They tried to beat Harpoon before with Global Conflict Blue but there weren't much content (don't know the state of GCB now).
I think RP will take time to mature.  They're not even done with GCB and now they go developing RP...
Red Pill and (the excellent) GCB are different projects being developed by two completely separate groups.

Sorry didn't know that. I always though it's the same.
Anyway looking forward to see what RP has to offer.
rich12545
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by rich12545 »

ORIGINAL: U2

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.

I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?

This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?
billyjj
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by billyjj »

This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?

This all started with the Battle of the Bulge game, just like a few of us have warned. They see all you people as idiots now that will bend over and pay whatever they say for whatever crap they are selling.
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U2
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by U2 »

ORIGINAL: rich12545

ORIGINAL: U2

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.

I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?

This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?

Reread my post, please. HPS earns money to support that series by using the same engine over and over again (they release new games). With that money they can continue to support the series. For how many years do you expect these guys to continue supporting Harpoon without earning more money???

If they did what you are asking them no one would buy this game, since there would be no point, so they would continue to work for free (and that means no patches for you!)

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V22 Osprey
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by V22 Osprey »

ORIGINAL: U2

ORIGINAL: rich12545

ORIGINAL: U2




I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?

This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?

Reread my post, please. HPS earns money to support that series by using the same engine over and over again (they release new games). With that money they can continue to support the series. For how many years do you expect these guys to continue supporting Harpoon without earning more money???

If they did what you are asking them no one would buy this game, since there would be no point, so they would continue to work for free (and that means no patches for you!)


Then give us new content to buy. If they would make a new game, then charge us then it's fine. We shouldn't have to pay extra patches that fix the game issues. If there is a bug in a game, I'm entitled to a free patch because I paid for the game to work as advertised. Otherwise they might as well make this game monthly subscription.
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rich12545
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by rich12545 »

ORIGINAL: U2

ORIGINAL: rich12545

ORIGINAL: U2




I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?

This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?

Reread my post, please. HPS earns money to support that series by using the same engine over and over again (they release new games). With that money they can continue to support the series. For how many years do you expect these guys to continue supporting Harpoon without earning more money???

If they did what you are asking them no one would buy this game, since there would be no point, so they would continue to work for free (and that means no patches for you!)


So you're saying there won't be purchases from new customers buying the repackaged Ultimate? Doesn't this compare to those new games?

And how much money do they need? Most of the work is done by volunteers who get a small cut of future sales. It's not like there's a full time dev (or team) who need to be paid.
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TonyE
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by TonyE »

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Then give us new content to buy. If they would make a new game, then charge us then it's fine. We shouldn't have to pay extra patches that fix the game issues. If there is a bug in a game, I'm entitled to a free patch because I paid for the game to work as advertised. Otherwise they might as well make this game monthly subscription.

On the HC Side:
HCDB updates which tend to be new content because Brad does a good job the first time around...
http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.ph ... owfile=235 (many updates there)

Game additions/improvements:
I post the release notes of each build as we crank it out... Link goes to first build after the last patch (2008.044)
http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.ph ... ost&p=9285
I think you'll find many of the items are game improvements, not just bug fixes.

Even though the whole team on the HC side is volunteers, Matrix's business model demands they make some money on the production, manual formatting, pretty box creations, etc. I don't neccessarily like it but then their doing this keeps AGSI happy enough to let me and my team keep working on the game. It's a lot of layers of crap to deal with for a hobby!


Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner
rich12545
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by rich12545 »

Tony, it would be interesting to know what plans you have for HCE in the next year or two. What improvements are you looking at? Because that's really where the $35 is going. Future development not what's happened in the past. Those were patches for our original purchase. The $35 is for the future.
Rosseau
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by Rosseau »

Rich, you're in a good position right now. You've got that $35 in your pocket and will get the first set of patches.

I spent the $35; got through a rough install process; and can't run the platform editor, and no pics in ANW.

Actually, it's a miracle the two games run in this package. I'm not complaining per se, but I'm not thrilled either.

EDIT:

Tony got me straightened out on the Platform Editor on a Sat. Night, no less. I just had to download Access Runtime. So I just got my $35 worth of support already, and am now "thrilled."
rich12545
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by rich12545 »

Hmmm, actually it's more like $38. MG charges tax in WA. About 9%. Well, the patch will be good for a while, maybe indefinitely. Will there be $38 worth of HCE upgrades in the next couple of years? Inquiring minds want to know.
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jomni
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by jomni »

ORIGINAL: rich12545

This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?

Agree with you. That was my very first reaction when I heard the news about ultimate. But to put it into perspective, it's the same thing done with WITP AE. They stopped updating WITP once AE was released. Game engine the same but AE has more improvements and squashed bugs which they say is almost a different game. I disagree but I just have to bite the bullet because I just love the game.

With regards to HPS, they release full priced games of the same engine but different scenarios and theaters. This makes the money for them to continue supporting the game engine and releasing new content.
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TonyE
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by TonyE »

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Tony, it would be interesting to know what plans you have for HCE in the next year or two. What improvements are you looking at? Because that's really where the $35 is going. Future development not what's happened in the past. Those were patches for our original purchase. The $35 is for the future.

I'm guessing you didn't bother to follow the links, both of which clearly show the development to date, long past the ultimate release (which we on the HC side had 99% finished over a year ago <grr>).

Check out the HarpGamer beta area and you'll see a lot of what is planned. Since it is a volunteer effort I can't say when things will be finished and I further can't say when Matrix will get around to releasing it. But at least you can see what we're working on.

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner
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sterckxe
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by sterckxe »

ORIGINAL: billyjj
This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?

This all started with the Battle of the Bulge game, just like a few of us have warned. They see all you people as idiots now that will bend over and pay whatever they say for whatever crap they are selling.

Are you saying that Battles from the Bulge is crap ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx








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Hertston
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: billyjj

This all started with the Battle of the Bulge game, just like a few of us have warned. They see all you people as idiots now that will bend over and pay whatever they say for whatever crap they are selling.

There is no obligation to buy anything, and 'all us people' do make considered purchase decisions. Some have a price they will no go above for anything and others decide on a case by case example. In my own case I probably buy less than half the Matrix releases than I did a few years ago as due to a combination of exchange rates, sales tax and pricing policy I consider most not 'crap', but significantly over-priced. Despite enjoying CoG I refused to buy the EE because I thought the pathetic discount offered to existing owners verged on insulting.

BotB is expensive, but not overpriced. It is also, most certainly, not 'crap'! Ditto WitP and, in all probability, WitE. In the case of BotB the price was initially a shock as it was a significant increase on CotA, but the simple fact is that despite it's awesome owning-ness the series has never sold vast amounts of copies, even compared with other wargame series. If the higher price is needed to keep making games, so be it.
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Terl
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by Terl »

I understand the economics of making the games and realize that the extra funds are needed for future development. I guess the point I would make back, is that there is a price point ceiling for me and Matrix has hit it. Unlike most larger gaming companies, Matrix prices never go down as the games age (heck, Battles in Normandy and the Italy one are still 50-60 bucks) and unlike other companies their sales are not as deep in the percent off. I understand why and have no issue with it. I vote with my wallet though and sadly I have not purchased a matrix game in quite some time. I was saving some money to get CoTA but then that price went up higher than it started so I just gave up altogether.

I am not saying the games are not worth the money, just not what I would pay; that's all. I waited a long time for BfTB but saw the price and watched CoTA's go up and figured I'd just stick with what I have. I have bought over 20 Matrix titles, just none new due to pricing.

I have learned also that rants about prices do little good. But, since those responded as to why they would buy, I thought it fair that those who do not buy get a chance to say way. Frankly for me it is just the money. I can buy two games (older ones) through another vendor that will make me smile and make me happy and while away the time just fine.

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sterckxe
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

Post by sterckxe »

ORIGINAL: Terl
Unlike most larger gaming companies, Matrix prices never go down as the games age (heck, Battles in Normandy and the Italy one are still 50-60 bucks) and unlike other companies their sales are not as deep in the percent off. I understand why and have no issue with it.

+1, but in addition I think Matrix is making a mistake by not deeply discounting older titles.

Just my 2 euro-cents

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

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