HSG Bussard

[Mad Russian]

Here is another of the scenarios that I made while learning to use the editor.

This one is the action where Michael Wittmann earns the Iron Cross.

You will take a single StuGIII against 18 Soviet tanks. Just as he did that day.

Will you survive the action to become one of the wars greatest tank aces as he did? [&o]

We'll soon see won't we.....

All comments are welcome.

Good Hunting.

MR

[wdboyd]

Out of curiosity, can Panzer Blitz and Panzer Leader battles be converted into usable missions?
 
You old boardgamers out there would probably remember these great games.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: wdboyd

Out of curiosity, can Panzer Blitz and Panzer Leader battles be converted into usable missions?

You old boardgamers out there would probably remember these great games.

YOU OLD BOARDGAMERS????? [X(]

The Panzerblitz/leader series of games would be very hard to convert directly. One such piece in PB/PL would be an entire platoon here and for the Soviets 3 entire platoons.

The conversions would be huge!

SL/ASL/CM scenarios should start showing up by the boatload anytime though.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Stridor]

MR,

Really looking forward to this one.

Great scenario intro really sets the scene.

[SPOILERS]
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

1st problem was MW's stug in winter camo! You need to type "summer" instead of "default" into the Mods: box of the scenario editor

Was a little confused re: positioning. Briefing talks about "streams" & "Russian tanks advancing towards the hill" but i started in reverse slope and couldn't see any of them (streams or tanks). If it wasn't for my ALT+TAB, CTRL+ALT+B re-read briefing system I never would have released they were coming over the northern hill (was stated in briefing mind you) or the southern hill.

Perhaps the points balance might need to be addressed as well. As it stands you can't really stop the russians from taking both of the flags at least for a short time and given that the points balance is so far in the russian's favour (289 vs 38) the game will just award it to russia without a single shot being fired.

What I think you need to do is to have another german flag way in the rear worth ~ 100 points. That way the game will end as it historically did after 6-7 russians tanks killed. If you want the player to kill more then just drop the points value.

What happened to me was that I took out 9 T26s was busily scanning my flanks when I got hit by a T26 round which did only minor damage, but that coupled with the fact that some russian reinforcements appeared meant the points balance swung in their favour and I got a Marginal Loss.

The Russian's should win if they *kill* MW. If you want the player to win by killing 18 tanks then you will need to bring them out slowly and not have too many "points" on the field at once that unbalances the lone stug (either that or use skillfull use of the time bonus system).

Interesting sceneario, very difficult to balance these, bit of spit and polish and it will be a classic.

Regards

S.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Stridor

MR,

Really looking forward to this one.

Great scenario intro really sets the scene.

[SPOILERS]
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

1st problem was MW's stug in winter camo! You need to type "summer" instead of "default" into the Mods: box of the scenario editor

Was a little confused re: positioning. Briefing talks about "streams" & "Russian tanks advancing towards the hill" but i started in reverse slope and couldn't see any of them (streams or tanks). If it wasn't for my ALT+TAB, CTRL+ALT+B re-read briefing system I never would have released they were coming over the northern hill (was stated in briefing mind you) or the southern hill.

Perhaps the points balance might need to be addressed as well. As it stands you can't really stop the russians from taking both of the flags at least for a short time and given that the points balance is so far in the russian's favour (289 vs 38) the game will just award it to russia without a single shot being fired.

What I think you need to do is to have another german flag way in the rear worth ~ 100 points. That way the game will end as it historically did after 6-7 russians tanks killed. If you want the player to kill more then just drop the points value.

What happened to me was that I took out 9 T26s was busily scanning my flanks when I got hit by a T26 round which did only minor damage, but that coupled with the fact that some russian reinforcements appeared meant the points balance swung in their favour and I got a Marginal Loss.

The Russian's should win if they *kill* MW. If you want the player to win by killing 18 tanks then you will need to bring them out slowly and not have too many "points" on the field at once that unbalances the lone stug (either that or use skillfull use of the time bonus system).

Interesting sceneario, very difficult to balance these, bit of spit and polish and it will be a classic.

Regards

S.

Thanks for the comments Stridor. I appreciate them.

Some "stuff" about this particular scenario and PCK.

First, there are no directional map edges in the game. Hopefully that will change in the near future. A simple directional "N" on the main map would help this scenario tremendously. As it is, I have used the orientation on the tactical map to give directional instructions.

Second, I will redo this map when I get an editor. I'll put the stream at his back. The only reason that it's in the briefing is it was a part of his original orders.

Third, I need more experience with the PC editor/my own game play to tweak this one to it's full potential. I released it since my playtest group thought it was challenging. I'm still looking for all the little things that can be done to balance the scenario. That only comes with practice. This is one of those scenarios that I learn what works and what doesn't, to some small extent.

I've got to start somewhere and these smaller types of scenarios both work and don't work for that. The AI won't play the Germans. I kill MW in about 6 turns if I play the Soviets. Which is as it should be. This scenario is about a month old now. Playing it several times to try to get the idea about how the AI responds to the flags. Where to start both sides. How soon I could get the sides to engage. That's all pretty challenging for a scenario with a single unit in the game for the Germans. You don't have a lot of room for error...but then that's one of the things I like about this fight.

I don't intend on MW having to kill 18 tanks to win. If he kills 6 as in the original fight he should win. There have been some impressive results with this scenario so far. Both for the Germans and for the Soviet AI.

I'll have a look at cleaning up the briefings to make it easier to understand where the action is expected to take place.

I look forward to more of your comments, on this, and the other HSG scenarios.

Good Hunting.

MR

[kam99]

MR,

An interesting scenario. I had a go at creating this myself, but was not successful. I was under the impression that Wittmann actually faced T34s in real life?

Anyway, I managed a Legendary victory by just leaving my Stug in its original starting position. Probably I was just lucky. I will try it again.

Once again, excellent briefings. I would echo Stridor's comments about flag placement. At one time it looked as if I might lose the scenario even though I had destroyed a large number of Russian tanks and was still alive.

kam

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Stridor

MR,

Really looking forward to this one.

Great scenario intro really sets the scene.

[SPOILERS]
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

1st problem was MW's stug in winter camo! You need to type "summer" instead of "default" into the Mods: box of the scenario editor

Was a little confused re: positioning. Briefing talks about "streams" & "Russian tanks advancing towards the hill" but i started in reverse slope and couldn't see any of them (streams or tanks). If it wasn't for my ALT+TAB, CTRL+ALT+B re-read briefing system I never would have released they were coming over the northern hill (was stated in briefing mind you) or the southern hill.

Perhaps the points balance might need to be addressed as well. As it stands you can't really stop the russians from taking both of the flags at least for a short time and given that the points balance is so far in the russian's favour (289 vs 38) the game will just award it to russia without a single shot being fired.

What I think you need to do is to have another german flag way in the rear worth ~ 100 points. That way the game will end as it historically did after 6-7 russians tanks killed. If you want the player to kill more then just drop the points value.

What happened to me was that I took out 9 T26s was busily scanning my flanks when I got hit by a T26 round which did only minor damage, but that coupled with the fact that some russian reinforcements appeared meant the points balance swung in their favour and I got a Marginal Loss.

The Russian's should win if they *kill* MW. If you want the player to win by killing 18 tanks then you will need to bring them out slowly and not have too many "points" on the field at once that unbalances the lone stug (either that or use skillfull use of the time bonus system).

Interesting sceneario, very difficult to balance these, bit of spit and polish and it will be a classic.

Regards

S.

Haven't looked at this in a long time...obviously.

While your entire post is very insightful to me this part of your comments is the most important from a designers point of view. Not just to me but those wanting to do their own scenarios as well.

If you want the player to win by killing 18 tanks then you will need to bring them out slowly and not have too many "points" on the field at once that unbalances the lone stug (either that or use skillfull use of the time bonus system).

The original engagement had the Soviet moving more or less together. So bringing them on nice and slow for the player isn't an option.

Skillful use of the time bonus system is what I want to talk about.

What exactly do you mean when you make that comment.

The comments about being lost on a PCK map are legitimate. Since there is no north marker on the map or any way to add labels then you have to try to do that all from a description in the text. That's not easy at times.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: kam99

MR,

An interesting scenario. I had a go at creating this myself, but was not successful. I was under the impression that Wittmann actually faced T34s in real life?

Anyway, I managed a Legendary victory by just leaving my Stug in its original starting position. Probably I was just lucky. I will try it again.

Once again, excellent briefings. I would echo Stridor's comments about flag placement. At one time it looked as if I might lose the scenario even though I had destroyed a large number of Russian tanks and was still alive.

kam

The sources I use don't talk about T-34's being there. They were all older models except for that KV-1......

**** Edited ****

I have more sources on Wittmann since I made this scenario. That may shed some light onto tank types but in PCK at the moment you couldn't use T-34's and win. The KV and T-34 both used the same gun. They would kill you within moments of getting LOS/LOF.

****

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mobius]

Challenging scenario. Lost Wittmann 2 out of 3 tries.[:(] Just losing StuG tracks leads to a loss.

[Stridor]

MR,

Now that we have the MM and can place labels on maps, why don't you give me all the info you have on the map/engagement:

time of day
date
weather conditions
cloud/light conditions
ground conditions/ terrain types
if you have precise lat/long coordindates great (I can use those to get the correct topology from google)
if not as many pictures or words of info about the map you have
would rather not just be pointed to the CMx1 map version as a recreation of a recreation is never as good as a recreation of the original.


I will make you better, labelled map for this scenario. I think that will go a long way to fixing some of my perceived limitations with it. We can then talk about some of the finer points of scenario creation after that if necessary.

Regards

S.

[Mobius]

On the fourth try got a Legendary Victory with 10 T26 kills. Didn't fight the KV as I ran and hid in some woods when it showed up. Tried to get a side/rear shot on it later but it seemed to have roamed out of sight and was never seen again.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Stridor

MR,

Now that we have the MM and can place labels on maps, why don't you give me all the info you have on the map/engagement:

time of day
date
weather conditions
cloud/light conditions
ground conditions/ terrain types
if you have precise lat/long coordindates great (I can use those to get the correct topology from google)
if not as many pictures or words of info about the map you have
would rather not just be pointed to the CMx1 map version as a recreation of a recreation is never as good as a recreation of the original.


I will make you better, labelled map for this scenario. I think that will go a long way to fixing some of my perceived limitations with it. We can then talk about some of the finer points of scenario creation after that if necessary.

Regards

S.

Stridor, you do remember this fight took place in Russia?

If I give you a dollar for every single engagement in Russia, that I know of, where I can give you all that information you wouldn't be able to buy a cup of coffee and a donut with the money you get.

99% of the time you have a village name. You're lucky if you get that. I've yet to see a long/lat for any of them. Sometimes you can get close to figuring out ABOUT where the fight took place, but that's about as good as it gets in Russia.

Shoot, I'm doing a series of scenarios for the Reichswald operation and those battles took place in Germany. The hamlets are so small they aren't named on the map or Google Earth TODAY!!

And I'll have you know my CMx1 version of the map for this fight is the best ever done yet! At least I think so.....[:D]

Anybody that thinks that the MM is going to render accurate battle maps for fights in Russia needs to take a deep breath. Most of the time you have no idea where the fight took place within a 20 mile/32km radius. So you go with what looks likely or do a best guestimate as to what it looked like.

Good Hunting.

MR

[benpark]

I agree it's very challenging to find exactly where a bulk of Soviet-Axis battles took place, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth trying. Which battles you pick to simulate also matter. I generally start with something I can find maps or locations for, and then do the OOB etc.

The argument that it's not worth researching precise locations where engagements took place denies the premise of why I personally play wargames- it allows me to better understand particular engagements. Some people just like to play these things as "games" (or some combination of both), that's coolio as well, but not so interesting for me.

If you use any old map that might be remotely close to the real terrain denies the how and why of what that took place there. Finding this stuff out also is an opportunity to spend lots of time researching and hunting particular information down. That's the best part of it.

As for the locale for this battle:

Just a quick look on the Google came up with this:

http://www.panzerace.net/english/pz_bio.asp?page=3

As my massive book collection focuses on 1943 on, I can't find a map of where this engagement was fought exactly. But there are plenty of places to look for specifics for the curious with $ and time to burn. It is listed as being fought on July 12th, so finding the location of the LAH for that day would be a good start. In July, the unit was near Zamosc, then to Rovno and on to Klevan. After that the Uman pocket. If you could find the unit citation for Wittman for the day, that would probably help a great deal as well.

[Mobius]

From my book on Wittmann this battle began on the morning July 12, 1941 near Moszkov (near Dubno and Olyka). He was ordered to go as far as a stream near height 65.5.

This book says the Russian tanks were T-34/76s but 18 of them this early in the war seems a little out of place. Though two 75mm AP shells did bounce off the front slope at 400m of one and a third shot only temporarily jamming the T34s turret.

Six T34s were claimed by Wittmann with others in his unit of StuGs battling other Russian tanks.

I don’t think there was any HEAT ammunition in the tank at the time.
Buzzard is suppose to have been a StuG Ausf A.

[Stridor]

So how accurate is Steve's (MR's) scenario in the first place?

I don't really have the time right now to do lots of leg work I was kinda hoping I would be provided with all the basic data and then just get on with the work of building them map.

Regards

S.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: benpark

I agree it's very challenging to find exactly where a bulk of Soviet-Axis battles took place, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth trying. Which battles you pick to simulate also matter. I generally start with something I can find maps or locations for, and then do the OOB etc.

I never said it wasn't worth trying. More and more information is coming out about the Soviet side of the war. But even then, unless you can read Russian, finding these places on a map is challenging. Again, in most cases you have nothing at all about the Soviet side of the battle. I have a very few accounts of the fighting from the Soviet, when I can match those up with German accounts I've done something I rarely get to do.

With the Western Allies it's a bit different. There are accounts of the fighting from both sides and you can pretty regularly get accounts of the same action from both sides. Sometimes even accurate maps and orders of battle.

The argument that it's not worth researching precise locations where engagements took place denies the premise of why I personally play wargames- it allows me to better understand particular engagements. Some people just like to play these things as "games" (or some combination of both), that's coolio as well, but not so interesting for me.

I didn't know there was an argument that it's not worth researching locations for engagements. That's what HSG does. Historically based scenarios. What I'm telling you is that, for the actions in Russia in particular, you often times have no EXACT location for where an action takes place and go with a best guess. I use what makes sense to me.

If you use any old map that might be remotely close to the real terrain denies the how and why of what that took place there. Finding this stuff out also is an opportunity to spend lots of time researching and hunting particular information down. That's the best part of it.

Really?

That's why for the most part my scenarios are labeled semi-historical. I'll certainly keep an eye out for the 2 or 3 scenarios you manage to find all the information you seem to need to do a scenario.

My scenarios are based on historical actions. That means I know "something" about what happened and hopefully some general idea of where.

As for the locale for this battle:

Just a quick look on the Google came up with this:

http://www.panzerace.net/english/pz_bio.asp?page=3

As my massive book collection focuses on 1943 on, I can't find a map of where this engagement was fought exactly. But there are plenty of places to look for specifics for the curious with $ and time to burn.

Must be nice to have $ and time to burn. Not all of us do.

It is listed as being fought on July 12th, so finding the location of the LAH for that day would be a good start. In July, the unit was near Zamosc, then to Rovno and on to Klevan. After that the Uman pocket. If you could find the unit citation for Wittman for the day, that would probably help a great deal as well.

Yes, exactly my point. I can find where LAH is on any given day. The question is can we find where a single StuG in all of Russia is on any given day?

Even for a personality as famous as Wittmann, that can be impossible. You have to understand that alot of records were destroyed during the war. Especially in the east.

While the Germans kept good records they didn't include a sketch map of every action during the war. That means that most of the time you have no idea exactly where a fight took place.

That's where the scenario designer comes in to try to determine where that fight was. If I have no idea then I use my best guess of where the fighting would probably take place.

Until just recently there was no Google Earth.

Lecturing those of us on how to do our historical research for the scenarios we offer you is a bit interesting. Where was all this magical information in 1971 when I made my first PanzerBlitz scenario? Things have gotten better with the Soviets opening up their archives but we are 60+ years behind the rest of the world getting accurate information out of them.

Again, if you think that just because MM can make an accurate representation of a piece of ground in Russia that you are going to automatically be fighting the exact same situation you need to rethink that. Until some of their tactical history starts making it's way out of the Soviet Union we won't have the information from their side to do what you have described above.

Even then lower level leaders may not have had the tactical maps to give us the kind of AAR's we are used to reading from both the Germans and the Western Allies. And many of them don't have battle maps either.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Stridor

So how accurate is Steve's (MR's) scenario in the first place?

I don't really have the time right now to do lots of leg work I was kinda hoping I would be provided with all the basic data and then just get on with the work of building them map.

Regards

S.

I really don't remember asking you to do legwork on one of my scenarios.

In fact, I really don't think you should unless you are going to release a version of your own.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Stridor
So how accurate is Steve's (MR's) scenario in the first place?
I don't really have the time right now to do lots of leg work I was kinda hoping I would be provided with all the basic data and then just get on with the work of building them map.
Regards
S.

If you were going to make this scenario the way it is described in the book you would have a larger map and scatter the 6 of the 18 T-34s all over it. And make them really poor shots.

[benpark]

I'm not lecturing you (in particular) on anything. I have played more than my fair share of HSG scenarios in my many years of playing CM/BB/AK and enjoyed quite a few of them. There's no need to be defensive, I'm simply trying to open up other avenues and discuss how certain things could be more accurate.

Most people that play wargames realize that is only possible to a point, but think of the BFC boards when CM first came out- most of the discussions were about relative accuracy compared to historical data.

Anyone that produces anything and gives it away for free here is to be thanked (Stridor being the top of that list). As for where all of my scenarios are- I've been too busy producing new models and lots of other things for this game to actually spend time playing it. I had started a series of maps for Operation Spring Awakening that I may get to once I get some more time.

I'm simply stating a few differences of interpretation of how people might go about finding information and dealing with it. Semi-historical is good stuff, too. I just wonder if this location could actually be found (or modelled better at the very least), and wanted to illustrate that it may be possible if one were creative and wished to do so.

[benpark]

You can add the "N" directional in the map editor pretty easily as a place name.