Incredible Panzer Losses?

mkane · Post by **mkane** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 2:46 am

Hi,

Have been fiddeling around with WIR 2.1, the 1943 camp. I know this has not been worked on, but there is something that pisses me off; THE HUGE LOSSES IN ARMOR! This seems to especially hurt the germans. Even pure infantry attacks by the soviets lead to 25-50% Panzer losses! I know not all are destroyed, but still! Let me show an example (Took it from a random turn)

This is from a german attack against a soviet unit that was not entrenched (Had moved previous turn) Axis #, then Sov #

AFV: 996 vs 56
Guns: 1416 vs 274
Squads: 1481 vs 580
Axis: 191 Ftrs/195 Bmbrs

Losses:
AFV:302 vs 26
Guns: 29 vs 130
Men: 9900 vs 15110
3 ftrs/2 bmbrs down
Commanders where Rommel and Vatutin.
Odds was 10, so the soviets retreated, BUT, I find this number of tank losses appaling, and it happens all of the time?? Is this historically correct?? The german Panzer units was "used" to fighting against heavy odds, and still win the day after defeating "hordes" of soviet armor....

And a even more hideous example:
Soviets vs Germans, no entrenchment.
AFV: 0 vs 115
squads: 1167 vs 261
Guns: 388 vs 301
AX: 49 ftr/71 Bmbrs
Losses:
AFV: 0 vs 26!!
Inf: 5780 vs 9870
Guns: 14 vs 148!

Now, the odds was 3, and the axis retreated.
What I have a VERY hard time swallowing here, is the miniscule effect the german Panzer has... In guns they are fairly even, 5:1 in Infantry (Pretty common on the eastern front) and the germans are ALONE of owning Panzers, AND have air superiority. Am I the only one who find it weird that defending germans, with GOOD Panzer support have to bug out? And losing as many Panzers? 25% losses to Panzers
against INFANTRY!?! I would have guesses the outcome to be that the german Panzers would have routed the soviet infantry! The average skill of the divisions on the german side was ~80. I guess the reason is that this is math and doesnt take equipment class into play? Human wave doesn't work very well against armor!

I know this is a free game and all, and I appreciate the work Matrix put into is, I'm just frustrated out of my mind with being unable to attack more than one hex a turn, or I run out of armor!! And it keeps happening time and again, while the soviets seem to ALWAYS get off easier, even when using LARGE armored formations against my Panzer Corps. Losing over 100 Panthers in one go is annoying!! Especially when there is no enemy armor to kill em! (Yes, I know of AT guns, but they are next to useless when attaCking!)

I'm tempted some times to going back to ol' 1.13!

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M-Kane

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 4:48 am

Originally posted by mkane:
Hi,

Have been fiddeling around with WIR 2.1, the 1943 camp. I know this has not been worked on, but there is something that pisses me off; THE HUGE LOSSES IN ARMOR!

I find this number of tank losses appaling, and it happens all of the time?? Is this historically correct?? The german Panzer units was "used" to fighting against heavy odds, and still win the day after defeating "hordes" of soviet armor....

Am I the only one who find it weird that defending germans, with GOOD Panzer support have to bug out? And losing as many Panzers? 25% losses to Panzers
against INFANTRY!?! I would have guesses the outcome to be that the german Panzers would have routed the soviet infantry! The average skill of the divisions on the german side was ~80. I guess the reason is that this is math and doesnt take equipment class into play? Human wave doesn't work very well against armor!

I'm tempted some times to going back to ol' 1.13!

M-Kane,

You are right about the losses, which we have been concerned about for awhile. However, the key for now is playing the 1941 campaign scenario because of the changes to tank and aircraft values, which are only used in that scenario. The losses will still run too high, although with a change in tactics to a possibly more realistic one where the infantry are relied on more, the losses can be kept down. In the first turn of the 1941 scenario, I have managed to kill 10 times or more Soviet tanks to German ones, and even better in infantry and artillery. I have also, using the tactics I used to use in 1.13x, had only a 3 to 1 ratio of Soviet to German tank losses in that first turn.

The next version should have significantly lower losses (at least it is right now), which should make it much better to play. For now, try playing with just the 1941 scenario and try to use the infantry to force holes and then use panzers to exploit, avoiding head on attacks as much as possible, and the losses will be better, but too high overall.

Sorry about the problem.

------------------
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Svar · Post by **Svar** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 7:01 am

Originally posted by mkane:

I know this is a free game and all, and I appreciate the work Matrix put into is, I'm just frustrated out of my mind with being unable to attack more than one hex a turn, or I run out of armor!! And it keeps happening time and again, while the soviets seem to ALWAYS get off easier, even when using LARGE armored formations against my Panzer Corps. Losing over 100 Panthers in one go is annoying!! Especially when there is no enemy armor to kill em! (Yes, I know of AT guns, but they are next to useless when attaCking!)

I'm tempted some times to going back to ol' 1.13!

[/B]

mkane,

You might also soften up the Russians by sending each of your ground support bombers on an interdiction mission one bomber group at a time. Then reset the bombers to ground support using the "m" key when the mission button goes away. This will reduce the readiness of the Russian unit and significantly reduce the number of Russian forces in the battle and still allow you ground support A/C.

Svar

mkane · Post by **mkane** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 4:32 pm

Thanks for the info

I'll try out the 41 then I guess... Usually hate the long drive

------------------
M-Kane

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:16 pm

S! The incredible tank losses are also prevalent in the 41 scenario. It is so frustrating when you have a russian div cutoff with 3-8% readiness and they refuse to surrender AND you lose 50% of your tank force doing it! It drives me bonkers! Why are the tank losses higher than the russian losses? Sorry, I don't mean to be so negative. The game is great and you guys put so much effort into it, THANKS, but the appaling losses I suffer at the hands of the disorganized and cutoff russians makes me mad!

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:29 pm

Originally posted by Rowdy:
S! The incredible tank losses are also prevalent in the 41 scenario. It is so frustrating when you have a russian div cutoff with 3-8% readiness and they refuse to surrender AND you lose 50% of your tank force doing it! It drives me bonkers! Why are the tank losses higher than the russian losses? Sorry, I don't mean to be so negative. The game is great and you guys put so much effort into it, THANKS, but the appaling losses I suffer at the hands of the disorganized and cutoff russians makes me mad!

The excessive losses are due to changes in the combat resolution, so you'll see this whatever scenario you use, however the '41 scenario is the only one currently updated so you should only use that one anyway. The excessive tank losses have been noticed by a *lot* of people, and will be revisited, so have patience.