Raiding the US Early Dec

[grraven2004]

I have been gone for awhile so if this has been discussed before please forgive me.

I would like to know how feasible it would be for the KB after hitting PH to make a raid on either Seattle or SF. Smacking some of those airgroups and maybe hurting an aircraft factory would give the Japanese a little more time in the long run. Just a thought on my part please tell me how much I am wrong.

Thanks

[witpqs]

Not sure if anyone has done that. They have shown that invading the west coast is pretty well doomed to failure.

[grraven2004]

That I know would be sheer folly.

I just want to know if it would be worth the valuable navy pilots to take the airproduction down some while hurting the airgroups stationed there at the same time.

[rroberson]

while possible I think it has limited value. Better to employee your flattops tearing up DEI or interdicting his aussie supply lines. Get too close to his LBA on the west coast and thats a long way to go with a carrier full of holes.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

while possible I think it has limited value. Better to employee your flattops tearing up DEI or interdicting his aussie supply lines. Get too close to his LBA on the west coast and thats a long way to go with a carrier full of holes.

Exactly! People tend to forget that KB is far from invincibly even in December 1941. Even the crappy bombers (most of them) station at the WC at start can overhelm the CAP of KB (throw lots of bombers at KB and you will score some hits if you're not extremely unlucky). Some 500lb bomb hits on Japanese CV far away from home = sunken Japanese CV in most cases.

K

[Nomad]

I'll remember to keep an extra couple of Bomber Groups in the WC area. [:D]

In reality, it is a long way to go and probably not a lot of gain to be had. I ususally put a lot of my WC aircraft at Seatle and SF, no real use for them in LA or SD. So you would be fighting every air group stationed on the WC, could be a problem. And how much fuel do you have available? A couple of your CVs have short legs and I am not sure how far you can go on the TKs in the Replenishment TF that is following. Not to mention all the subs that will flood out behind you. A sub has a very good chance of hitting a CV that has some bomb damage. In the end only you can judge, but against a careful Allied player I would think you might be biting off more than you can chew.

[madflava13]

I never used to have CAP up on my WC bases, but threads like this have scared me recently into keeping at least a little bit up over my ports. I think an early war raid on San Fran might be worth it, but only if you think your opponent doesn't have CAP up...

[Mynok]

It's an easy decision, IMO. You will lose something you cannot replace: those elite bomber and fighter pilots. He might lose something he will get in droves anyway in two years.

[Feinder]

I wouldn't bother with with the west COAST. Even if you bomb an AC factory, it's going to be quickly repaired. You're also going to lose more pilots. The few points you'd get from the strat points, or for bombing a a few planes on the ground, I can't see being worth it.

Raiding the sea lanes between the West Coast and PH is often worth it tho. Many Allied players will immediately send convoys to PH with troops, or damaged ships from PH to West Coast. You can put a lot of hurt on these in the middle ground between SanFran and PH. Anything from killing 2 more damaged BBs to sinking the whole 2nd Marine Div. Lots of potential damage.

Depends on your opponent tho. I don't move anything to or from PH, until I know KB has left (and is NOT east of PH!). Also watch your own fuel consumption. Even raiding east of PH can burn a lot of fuel. And you don't want to get stuck out of sorties and gas.

-F-

[Nikademus]

Every Japanese player who PBEM's with me should come to the West Coast. Great vacation site. Sunny weather....the Golden Gate bridge.......hot dogs.

[Mynok]

Don't forget beautiful old cemeteries.......[:D]

[hawker]

Forget the WC.[:-]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

I have been gone for awhile so if this has been discussed before please forgive me.

I would like to know how feasible it would be for the KB after hitting PH to make a raid on either Seattle or SF. Smacking some of those airgroups and maybe hurting an aircraft factory would give the Japanese a little more time in the long run. Just a thought on my part please tell me how much I am wrong.

Thanks

I did an OR study on this a couple of decades ago, examining fuel usage figures, fuel capacities, and the historical documents. In reality, the KB was at the very limit of its combat radius on December 7th, and that was only because they had brought most of the IJN's oilers along and stripped their screening vessels past the minimum. They didn't have even enough loiter time to do a search for the US Fleet if it had been anchored at Lahaina Roads instead of Pearl. So when I see these replays with the KB hanging out east of Hawaii, I just shake my head.

In terms of the game, I don't know--I just know it shouldn't be feasible until the Japanese capture a *large* advanced base. Midway would not have been enough.

[rtrapasso]

I did an OR study on this a couple of decades ago, examining fuel usage figures, fuel capacities, and the historical documents. In reality, the KB was at the very limit of its combat radius on December 7th, and that was only because they had brought most of the IJN's oilers along and stripped their screening vessels past the minimum. They didn't have even enough loiter time to do a search for the US Fleet if it had been anchored at Lahaina Roads instead of Pearl. So when I see these replays with the KB hanging out east of Hawaii, I just shake my head.

Any possibility of getting a copy of this study??

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

I have been gone for awhile so if this has been discussed before please forgive me.

I would like to know how feasible it would be for the KB after hitting PH to make a raid on either Seattle or SF. Smacking some of those airgroups and maybe hurting an aircraft factory would give the Japanese a little more time in the long run. Just a thought on my part please tell me how much I am wrong.

Thanks

I did an OR study on this a couple of decades ago, examining fuel usage figures, fuel capacities, and the historical documents. In reality, the KB was at the very limit of its combat radius on December 7th, and that was only because they had brought most of the IJN's oilers along and stripped their screening vessels past the minimum. They didn't have even enough loiter time to do a search for the US Fleet if it had been anchored at Lahaina Roads instead of Pearl. So when I see these replays with the KB hanging out east of Hawaii, I just shake my head.

In terms of the game, I don't know--I just know it shouldn't be feasible until the Japanese capture a *large* advanced base. Midway would not have been enough.

Interesting. So does this mean that the endurance figures for these ships are incorrect, or does it mean that the Japanese SOP for operations mandated a large cushion of reserve fuel?

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

I did an OR study on this a couple of decades ago, examining fuel usage figures, fuel capacities, and the historical documents. In reality, the KB was at the very limit of its combat radius on December 7th, and that was only because they had brought most of the IJN's oilers along and stripped their screening vessels past the minimum. They didn't have even enough loiter time to do a search for the US Fleet if it had been anchored at Lahaina Roads instead of Pearl. So when I see these replays with the KB hanging out east of Hawaii, I just shake my head.

Any possibility of getting a copy of this study??

Too long ago. Here's a posting of mine from three years ago:

"When Japan attacked Pearl with the first air fleet, she sent six carriers,
two battleships, two scout heavy cruisers, a light cruiser, eleven
destroyers, and half (six) their oilers. When the attack went in, the
oilers were sitting in the middle of the ocean with two destroyers for
escort. If the US Pacific Fleet had been at sea just to the east of
Hawaii, the Japanese First Air Fleet lacked the fuel to go find it. If
Halsey had jumped the oilers, the return to Japan would have been an
interesting (slow) trip home with Halsey hanging around on the horizon."

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

I have been gone for awhile so if this has been discussed before please forgive me.

I would like to know how feasible it would be for the KB after hitting PH to make a raid on either Seattle or SF. Smacking some of those airgroups and maybe hurting an aircraft factory would give the Japanese a little more time in the long run. Just a thought on my part please tell me how much I am wrong.

Thanks

I did an OR study on this a couple of decades ago, examining fuel usage figures, fuel capacities, and the historical documents. In reality, the KB was at the very limit of its combat radius on December 7th, and that was only because they had brought most of the IJN's oilers along and stripped their screening vessels past the minimum. They didn't have even enough loiter time to do a search for the US Fleet if it had been anchored at Lahaina Roads instead of Pearl. So when I see these replays with the KB hanging out east of Hawaii, I just shake my head.

In terms of the game, I don't know--I just know it shouldn't be feasible until the Japanese capture a *large* advanced base. Midway would not have been enough.

Interesting. So does this mean that the endurance figures for these ships are incorrect, or does it mean that the Japanese SOP for operations mandated a large cushion of reserve fuel?

Warship endurance figures were typically based on a cruising speed around 15 knots and operational radius was usually treated as about 40% of the endurance at 15 knots. Endurance at 30 knots was *greatly* reduced--I seem to recall it was a factor of about seven smaller than at 15. The endurance of the IJN large carriers was about 8000 nautical miles, so we're dealing with an operational radius of 2500-3000 nm (40-50 hexes) at best, taking into account the shorter-legged warships in the screen and the need to maintain flight operations. Osaka to Pearl was about 3600 nm (about 60 hexes), so they needed to bring the oilers. If the US Fleet had been at Lahaina Roads, the KB would have had to advance another 100-200 nm to attack it, plus the loiter time to find it, so it works out to about 400 additional nm at full speed, or 2800 additional nm of endurance. That would have wiped out the DDs and sucked the fuel levels in the major combatants down quite a bit.

[Feinder]

What would be the issue with WitP is that KB starts the game, even after the 1st turn warp move, with full tanks.

In my Team PBEM, my brother Knavey did in fact catch the IJN oilers with Lex, and sank every last one of them.

-F-

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

What would be the issue with WitP is that KB starts the game, even after the 1st turn warp move, with full tanks.

In my Team PBEM, my brother Knavey did in fact catch the IJN oilers with Lex, and sank every last one of them.

-F-

Before approaching Pearl, the KB was at full tanks and the six oilers were at half tanks.

[Feinder]

I'm sorry, I read your post...

"When Japan attacked Pearl with the first air fleet, she sent six carriers,
two battleships, two scout heavy cruisers, a light cruiser, eleven
destroyers, and half (six) their oilers. When the attack went in, the
oilers were sitting in the middle of the ocean with two destroyers for
escort. If the US Pacific Fleet had been at sea just to the east of
Hawaii, the Japanese First Air Fleet lacked the fuel to go find it. If
Halsey had jumped the oilers, the return to Japan would have been an
interesting (slow) trip home with Halsey hanging around on the horizon."

to mean that KB was already at the extent of their range when they reached PH (and thus would not have had full tanks).

(* shrug *)

At least in WitP, KB starts at full tanks (and you say this is correct, which is fine with me). Within the framework of WitP, KB pretty much has enough gas to make short forray to the east of PH (not burning around at full speed tho), and then return to Kwaj.

-F-