Observations on WW2 Scenarios

[TOCarroll]

[&:] I'm not sure if this is an observation, or a question. I have been playing this game faithfully (perhaps obsessively)[:-], since 1999. My favorite area is WW2 East and Med fronts. Applying my experience, and reading every article I can find, I've noticed a coupla points that seem to hold true.....at least I can usually beat the AI.[:D]

On both of these fronts, the Germans are significantly qualitatively superior to the Russians or English. They also have a logistics problem, and are (particularlly in Russia) severely outnumbered [:@].

At first I had a tendancy to drive east like mad, and kill everything in sight. This usually wound up with me reaching a culmination point (Clauswitz), where the Russians (or English) were just as strong as me, and far more numerous.

I watched the computer play a coupla game w/ itself[X(], tried this and that, and came to the conclusion that all you probably knew.

Plan how to acheive your objectives carefully. Espically the rate of advance. Keep within your supply radius. I am now doing better at chopping up larger numbers of Russians (or British) than I was when I just had a few panzer divisions waaaaay out front. If you make contact with the main body of the Russian army (pre-1943), the combat will look like the first turns of Barbarossa, so take an extra turn or two to get there in force and in good supply. [:)] ALSO... don't forget the manuverability and superior command structure of the Germans. Working your way round the flanks, or zooping through a large hole in the line seems to be more effective than slugging it out.

That is pretty basic, and obviously doesn't apply to Bagration, El Alimen, ect. But for the eat-em-up panzers scenarios, it seems to be most effective. Comments (like I take a whole page to state the obvious)?

[Dr. Foo]

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll


On both of these fronts, the Germans are significantly qualitatively superior to the Russians or English.

I have to agree here. I just played the TOAW III Operation Barbarossa 41 as a PBEM. I took Germany and I rolled over the Soviets for an early end taking Moscow in 23 turns. This is no reflection on my opponent he played a decent game. The German units were far superior to the Russians in every battle, even against the Soviets best units they divided, retreated or simply evaporated.

I did not feel as if I won because I was a brilliant tactician, more so because the Soviets were never really in it to being with.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

I have to agree here. I just played the TOAW III Operation Barbarossa 41 as a PBEM. I took Germany and I rolled over the Soviets for an early end taking Moscow in 23 turns. This is no reflection on my opponent he played a decent game. The German units were far superior to the Russians in every battle, even against the Soviets best units they divided, retreated or simply evaporated.

I think the problem with a lot of these Barbarossa scenarios is not that the Russians aren't good enough but that there aren't enough of them. Let's take this scenario as an example;

In the scenario editor, I count 95,000 Axis combat squads assigned to units. The equivalent figure for the Soviets is 102,000. This doesn't fit with my understanding at all.

The figures for units on the map as of turn 1 are even worse: the Axis have an astonishing 72,000 combat squads as compared to a paltry 55,000 for the Soviets. Even the replacements won't help much- for squads, the Soviets only get 50% of the main combat squads, with only irregular squads (400 per turn) improving matters- but not by much.

The one really big advantage the Soviets had prior to 1943 was their ability to put vast numbers of men into the field. This is not really reflected in the scenario. So the Soviets lose. On top of this, they have to cope with the combination of a low force supply stockpile and low formation supply levels. To be fair to the designer these values were recommended in the original manual but they lead to units sitting on a rail line drawing perhaps four points of supply a turn, leading to the units being incredibly brittle and prone to evaporation.

[Industrial]

Try "Drang nach Osten" (best Barbarossa scenario I know) and see whether you'll steamroll over the soviets again [:'(]

[alaric99x]

Yes, DNO is superb.  I'm waiting and hoping this one will be updated for TOAW III

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Industrial

Try "Drang nach Osten" (best Barbarossa scenario I know) and see whether you'll steamroll over the soviets again [:'(]

93,000 Axis combat squads, 137,000 Soviet combat squads. The real difference is the Soviet squad replacement rates- which are about six times the German to begin with (though this can be reduced by events).

What I still find concerning are the figures for the first turn: 71,000 and 56,000 combat squads respectively. I know the Red Army was understrength, but it was still huge. Nevertheless obviously in this aspect the scenario is a big improvement over the disc Barbarossa, and most of the others. And those replacement rates will certainly work to make the Soviets resilient later in the scenario

The only scenario I can find at a glance which has more Soviet than Axis infantry squads in Europe as of June 1941 is Bob Cross' strategic study, with 132,000 Axis and 167,000 Soviet combat squads on the map to begin with. Obviously both figures are larger than in the other scenarios due to the Bob's particular design philosophy.

[Chuck2]

The Sovies are very resilient in that one.

[Industrial]

And just take a look at their reinforcements, they get huge quantities of milita and rifle divisions every turn, in DNO the Axis has to really work for a victory, play only good, and the soviets will soon stall your advance by simply throwing 3 new divisions at you for every one you destroy [:D]
And don't be fooled by your early advances, the map is large (huge), the axis units will worn down soon while the soviets will just get an almost endless flow of fresh troops.

It can be won by the Axis, but the first time playing DNO as the germans, better expect a crushing defeat [8D]

[TOCarroll]

Thanks for all the feedback. I did not know about the # of Russian squads v.s. German Squads (although on June 22, 1941 the Russians were outnumbered on the Eastern front. (And it rapidly got worse, with all the prisoners and KIA's.) Just look at the manpower on June 22--There were a few more Russian divisions on the front....but the Russian Rifile Divisions were smaller than German infantry divisions.[8|]
 
My main point was not that any scenario of this type is easy (it may be for YOU [&o])...I was saying plan, balance resources, don't overextend you supply line & end up in Gorki with 5 panzers. That kind of thing. Whatever goes on under the hood, the engine produces an apparantly realistic fealing game. I found myself having to make the same kind of operational decisions that caused so many heads to roll.[:-]
 
The 3rd edition indeed seems to have some improved new wrinkles.
 
Now if I can only win at DNO.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll

Thanks for all the feedback. I did not know about the # of Russian squads v.s. German Squads (although on June 22, 1941 the Russians were outnumbered on the Eastern front.

Sure- but the Russia army was a lot more front loaded than the German. No nonsense about having all these signallers in the artillery regiments, and so on. Naturally this caused problems- but it did mean an awful lot of Russians carrying rifles.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

The only scenario I can find at a glance which has more Soviet than Axis infantry squads in Europe as of June 1941 is Bob Cross' strategic study, with 132,000 Axis and 167,000 Soviet combat squads on the map to begin with. Obviously both figures are larger than in the other scenarios due to the Bob's particular design philosophy.

Thanks for your comments, Ben. Note that it is the "Soviet Union 1941" scenario included with TOAW III.

My sources had 4.5M Soviets in the ETO at the start. I wasn't targeting that figure in my Soviet force design, but it seemed to work out to about that figure when I'd finished it. Axis were about equal, but don't all start on the map.

And the Soviets suffered about 4.5M losses of all types by 12/1/41, yet still fielded a force of about 4M on that date. Since the scenario continues to 12/31/41, I extrapolated that pace to figure they would have received 4.5M total for the scenario - equal to what they had started with. That meant that they needed to receive about 167,000 squads over the course of the scenario - from new levies, militia, and the Far East transfers. The levies also had to be adjusted to account for the losses to population centers over the course of the scenario by bumping it up about 20%.

[hank]

ORIGINAL: Industrial

And just take a look at their reinforcements, they get huge quantities of milita and rifle divisions every turn, in DNO the Axis has to really work for a victory, play only good, and the soviets will soon stall your advance by simply throwing 3 new divisions at you for every one you destroy [:D]
And don't be fooled by your early advances, the map is large (huge), the axis units will worn down soon while the soviets will just get an almost endless flow of fresh troops.

It can be won by the Axis, but the first time playing DNO as the germans, better expect a crushing defeat [8D]

I've been hearing about this DNO sce for weeks now. I'm assuming from a post here this scenario is not available for TOAW III. Is this true? Will it be soon? If so, where can I download it? (from SZO maybe?)

later
[;)]

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: hank
I've been hearing about this DNO sce for weeks now. I'm assuming from a post here this scenario is not available for TOAW III. Is this true? Will it be soon? If so, where can I download it? (from SZO maybe?)

later
[;)]

No, not at SZO, but at rugged defence: http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... php?Id=479
or here:
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... /index.php

[Industrial]

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/display_scenario.php?Id=479


It's so far not converted to TOAW III, but you should be able to open it anyway.

The scenario designer said that he might convert it to TOAW III as soon as most bugs are ironed out and the new features added.

[Industrial]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

ORIGINAL: hank
I've been hearing about this DNO sce for weeks now. I'm assuming from a post here this scenario is not available for TOAW III. Is this true? Will it be soon? If so, where can I download it? (from SZO maybe?)

later
[;)]

No, not at SZO, but at rugged defence: http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... php?Id=479
or here:
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... /index.php

Bleh, um 4 Minuten geschlagen [:'(]

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Industrial


Bleh, um 4 Minuten geschlagen [:'(]

Harhar..Gruß nach Hamburg!

[Okimaw]

I converted DNO to TOAW 3, although we're only on turn 3 and so far so good. I'm playing an expert so I guess regardless I shouldnt be planning any victory parades in Moscow this time around.