World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.
I have no strong feelings to putting either Tromsø or Bodø on the map, but I think we need to have some kind of consistency when adding ports. If you add ports like Vaasa, Oulu and Luleå then I think it's not wrong to add ports like Tromsø and/or Bodø. I guess there was more action along the Norwegian coast than in the Gulf of Bothnia. If I remember correctly the German battleship of Tirpitz was sunk close to Tromsø hiding in the fjord there.
I wanted to add that Vaasa, Oulu and Luleå were put on the map by the original ADG designers, that is Harry Rowland, so if they are on the WiF FE map, they should be on the MWiF map.
For Norway, they choose to add only Trondheim and Narvik, that's why we only have Trondheim and Narvik on the MWiF map.
About Tromsø or Bodø or Kirkenes, we should add those that would allow to recreate the situation of the WiF FE Scandinavia minimap, but not those who would change it too much.
For me Kirkenes changes the situation too much, as it gives a starting point to reconquer Petsamo, or a support point to defend it, that doesn't exist in WiF FE.
Tromsø or Bodø add wuite nothing nor do they change nothing.
Bodø fills part of the supply hole that a unit walking from Trondheim to Narvik would encounter, but these are coastal hexes, so if the unit is in supply from the port of Trondehim, walking north it will stay in supply if it stay on the coast.
Tromsø fills part of the supply hole there is in northern Norway, but not enough to support Petsamo, which is good and does not change the game.
My vote are Bodø NO, and Tromsø YES as you said that Tromsø was the largest city in northern Norway.
Here are the current status of the proposals made here (I've reworked it a little) :
Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland
Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) : Make Major Port. It is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port.
7 Voters : 86 % YES, 14 % NO.
City, Minor Port / Sweden
Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
4 Voters : 25 % YES, 75 % NO.
Country / Finland
Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
4 Voters : 25 % YES, 75 % NO.
Country / Finland
Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) : Become Russian. No more Finnish borderlands.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Country / Finland
Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Lake / Norway
Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) : Add.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Lake / Norway
Vänern () (c92nichj) : Enhance outline drawing.
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Lake / Sweden
Boden (27,46) (Borger) : Renamme Luleå (Lulea).
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Minor Port / Sweden
Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway
Kirkenes (21,51) (ullern) : Add. For supply reasons.
2 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway
Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway
Turku (Åbo) (37,46) (Borger) : Add. Second largest Finnish city.
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Minor Port / Finland
Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail.
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Rail / Sweden
Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger) : Move 1 hex NW.
5 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Resource / Sweden
Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) : Move 1 hex SE.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Resource / Sweden
Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) : Keep.
6 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Strait / Sweden
Strait from Helsingor (NW Copenhagen) to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) : Add. Straits are between Dannish Helsingor and Swedish Helsingborg.
7 Voters : 86 % YES, 14 % NO.
Strait / Sweden
Clear hex (Røros, east of lake) 1 (34,39) (Borger) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway
Clear hex (Røros, east of lake) 2 (34,39) (Borger) : Change to Forest
1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Terrain / Norway
Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
3 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Terrain / Finland
Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
3 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Terrain / Finland
Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) : Become All Sea.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Terrain / Finland
Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) : Move the ice 1 hex SE. This glacier should be placed close to Swedish border.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway
Here it's possible to see:
* Topography (under the thematic maps)
* Population density (under the thematic maps)
* Land cover (under the thematic maps), urban, forest, croplands, desert,
tundra etc.
* Temperature, precipitation, biomes and many others.
It's possible to turn on map layers like country names, cities, lakes, mineral
resources etc.
The map is zoomable, but it's also possible to select a specific continent and
zoom from there.
About the Clear hex east of the lake, that was proposed to be turned into a mountain :
I've been all across Norway at work (including Røros) and I know that the terrain here is not very army friendly. It's a 2MP hex (not a 1MP hex).
What about making it Forest ? It is 1 MP for leg units, but 2 MP for motorized units. And Blitz Breakthrough are impossible. Blitz attacks are possible, but not Breakthrough.
Or it can also be made Tundra (2 MP for leg, 3 MP for MOT), but combat is normal.
Well forest is maybe the best compromise, isn't it ?
I agree with you about that. Forest is a good compromise because this hex contains
both forest, mountain and tundra terrain.
I also start thinking about the clear terrain hex in the far northern part of Norway.
I don't think that hex in Finnmark (close to Kautokeino) is terrain suitable for armor
breakthroughs. It's quite flat, but has Arctic climate so it's not a farmland. It's
very very cold there during the Winters so it can be partly a tundra hex. But it
has some vegetation and the Sami people have lots of raindeer it the inland
hexes in far north of Norway (those forest hexes and the one clear hex). So I
wonder if all hexes should be forest. Some of them probably deserve to be
marsh hexes, but I can't tell which is which. All I know is that Finnmarksvidda
(all these hexes) are notorious of its big and aggressive mosquitos. They hatch
in marshes.
So I can go with any terrain for this hex EXCEPT the current clear hex. This
Arctic terrain is definitely not tank terrain. The temperatures can often go as
low as -40 and sometimes as low as -50 there during the Winter. Sometimes
even the Røros hex can be that cold during the Winter. Røros is the coldest
town (except tiny mountain villages) of southern Norway. But I don't think
the terrains in Finnmarksvidda and Røros have permafrost (an indicator of
tundra). It's often quite hot at summertime on the Finnmarksvidda. Often
above +20 degrees and sometimes almost as high as +30 degrees. So
maybe forest hexes is the best depiction of it's terrain for MWIF purposes.
It gives leg units 1MP terrain cost and only armor units 2MP terrain cost.
It's also fine it prevents armor breakthrough attacks because this is definitely
not ideal armor terrain like the Ukrainian grasslands.
By the way, I still have relatives in the Malmo area. In fact, a couple of my cousins from New Jersey are presently on vacation visiting the old ancestral home in Vitemule (spelling?). I was there once and listened to its "singing sands".
I told you not to take the blue pills with the red pills. [;)]
During the latter part of the 20th century the government became more dominated by the finnish people and the finnishification(?) increased in strength this is why the Finnish version of the names are more common in modern maps.
This lead the Swedish-heritage minority to march on the capital with placards saying "Finish Finnishification!".
Except they weren't in English, so it wasn't as funny. [:'(] And it didn't actually happen.
Tammerfors (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland
Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) : Make Major Port. It is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port.
7 Voters : 86 % YES, 14 % NO.
City, Minor Port / Sweden
Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
4 Voters : 25 % YES, 75 % NO.
Country / Finland
Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
4 Voters : 25 % YES, 75 % NO.
Country / Finland
Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) : Become Russian. No more Finnish borderlands.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Country / Finland
Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Lake / Norway
Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) : Add.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Lake / Norway
Vänern () (c92nichj) : Enhance outline drawing.
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Lake / Sweden
Boden (27,46) (Borger) : Renamme Luleå (Lulea).
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Minor Port / Sweden
Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway
Kirkenes (21,51) (ullern) : Add. For supply reasons.
2 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway
Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway
Turku (Åbo) (37,46) (Borger) : Add. Second largest Finnish city.
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Minor Port / Finland
Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail.
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Rail / Sweden
Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger) : Move 1 hex NW.
5 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Resource / Sweden
Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) : Move 1 hex SE.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Resource / Sweden
Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) : Keep.
6 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Strait / Sweden
Strait from Helsingor (NW Copenhagen) to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) : Add. Straits are between Dannish Helsingor and Swedish Helsingborg.
7 Voters : 86 % YES, 14 % NO.
Strait / Sweden
Clear hex (Røros, east of lake) 1 (34,39) (Borger) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway
Clear hex (Røros, east of lake) 2 (34,39) (Borger) : Change to Forest
1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Terrain / Norway
Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
3 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Terrain / Finland
Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
3 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Terrain / Finland
Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) : Become All Sea.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Terrain / Finland
Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) : Move the ice 1 hex SE. This glacier should be placed close to Swedish border.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway
Svartisen: I am fine with what Borger said about keeping it there but changing how the coastline is drawn. (I can go for moving the ice one hex directly east, if anyone think that’s better?)
About hex (34,39) –Røros
Nice pictures Borger. I think I understand Borger pretty well. I think every Norwegian have the notion that Røros is a mountain area. So I do see the point in changing it just to go with popular belief.
I do have another point though:
The most important thing about terrain is the movement cost. As Borger already pointet out there was really another Norwegian railroad further to the east that was even older than the one drawn on the WIF map. And why was this other railroad made first? Because it was shorter and easier to go over Røros than where the later main railroad was going. (It’s somewhat like that today also, the main road goes where the railroad is on the map, but the shorter road in both km and hours goes further east.) So my point is, I don’t want Røros as a mountain because it should cost less movement points going there than further west. (Remember we have currently all said yes to turn hex (35,37) into forest so we are reducing movement cost on the western route.)
I don’t know what my conclusion is. I don’t want to press to hard either.... Maybe Patrice’s middle way approach of a forest hex is most fitting? I know see that Borger already made a vote for Forest. So I’ll go for that too then.
(I don’t know why Rørosbanen ain’t on the map. A possible reason is that it had a different gauge width than the rest of the railroad when the war started, but the works to change the cauge to standard was completed in 41.)
I will now propose making the resource hex of Norway a mountain hex. As Borger said some of the hex in the west is likely to be clear. But what is important when deciding the terrain?
-Possibly defending the resource? The resource is in my view representing the heavy water factory which was a rare commodity. The heavy water factory was in the mountains. The resource may also represent some mineral mines in the area. (Titanium I believe? important for aircraft _ but that may not have been exploited until after the war.) In any case defence of the resource would be in mountain.
-Secondly movement. If moving from Kristiansand to Stavanger you have to move through some serious rough terrain which will slow both infantry and motorized severely. There are no other movement directions worth considering.
I had a look at Google Earth of the area. Google earth doesn’t have much detail in the area though. But you can get a 3d view if you turn on terrain.
I will also suggest making hex (40,34) a sea hex (hex dot). Reason is the following google earth picture.
Attachments
southernc..tNorway.jpg (129.07 KiB) Viewed 334 times
Due to Patrice's clarification that he thinks it really is ok to change features of Scandinavia on the European WIF map, I update my vote. I only bold face those votes that are changed from the last time.
ORIGINAL: Froonp Here's an update about the votes :
Name of modification : Tampere (35,47) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 67 % / NO : 33 % City / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Third largest city.
Name of modification : Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) 5 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % City, Minor Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port. No -> Yes
Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 33 % / NO : 67 % Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish.
Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 33 % / NO : 67 % Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish.
Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands, Become Russian.
Name of modification : Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) 4 Voters, YES : 25 % / NO : 75 % Lake / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Removed.
Name of modification : Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 67 % / NO : 33 % Lake / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Add. No -> Yes
Name of modification : Vänern () (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Outline needs enhancing No -> Yes
Name of modification : Vättern (40,40 SE) (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Extended 1 hexside SW. No -> Yes
Name of modification : Karlskrona (44,42) (lomyrin) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Major Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port. No -> Yes
Name of modification : Boden (27,46) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 67 % / NO : 33 % Minor Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Renammed Luleå (Lulea).
Name of modification : Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Minor Port / Norway Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons.
Name of modification : Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Minor Port / Norway Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons. No -> Yes
Name of modification : Turku (Åbo) (37,46) (Borger) 4 Voters, YES : 75 % / NO : 25 % Minor Port / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest Finnish city. No -> Yes
Name of modification : Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Rail / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail. I don't know this. But I suppose I vote yes if it's true.
Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Resource / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex NW.
Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 50 % / NO : 50 % Resource / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex SE.
Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Keep
Name of modification : Strait from Helsingor (NW Copenhagen) to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) 5 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Straits are between Dannish Helsingor and Swedish Helsingborg. No -> Yes
Name of modification : Clear hex (34,39) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Mountain. Change to forest is ok, not mountains.
Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 0 % / NO : 100 % Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 0 % / NO : 100 % Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become all Sea. No -> Yes
Name of modification : Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : This glacier is placed close to Swedish border. Move the ice 1 hex SE.
Name of modification : Mountain hex (35,37) (Incy) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Forest.
Name of modification : Sognefjord () (Incy) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Drawn too wide.
Why is the 'Boden-hex' not a fortified hex? In the first half of the 20th century, Bodens fästning "The northern lock" was a effective Fortress. With a system of forts encircling 25 km with the city of Boden inside it. It contains roughly of 5 heavy artillery forts supported by flanking batteries and several infantry housing/storage forts some 1200 structures all in all. This supported by a garrison several mobile artillery divisions and infantry totalling about 15 000 men during the war. Built to protect the port of Luleå and the railway lines intersecting in Boden. So I'd would suggest that this fortress that might have been the strongest in northen europe (without a doubt the strongest in scandinavia) at the time warrants an all around fortress hex.
The bit I've highlighted in bold might be a counter argument to having fortifications all around this hex. If the hex has an area of 2500km, then the fort described above is of about 200 square km (if my back-of-the-envelope calculation is correctish), or 8% of the hex's area.
Also, are any of the fortifications in Boden along a hex boundary? I guess typically they are in the case of the Maginot etc, hence the difficulty of attacking into the hex. If not, then perhaps that hexside shouldn't be fortified.
ORIGINAL: Froonp
Well, why not after all.
Chances are high that Boden sees as much action in the game as in reality, so why not add an all around fortification.
But Toed, comparing Boden Fortifications to the Maginot Line, of the fortifications of Sebastopol, or the Fortifications of Singapore, are you really really sure that Boden would deserve the same fortifications ?
Please note that the Siegfried line is not represented on the WiF FE map, not at all, so are you still sure about Boden ?
Patrice
Yes and No. It is smaller in size than the Maginot, more all around than Singapore and far less proven than Sevastopol. Surely if compairing those famous forts with eachother one would not really find many similarities either.
But I can in sense compare it to The Maginot line. The Maginot forced the Germans to bypass it. To my knowledge there was two major issues that saved Sweden from German attack during the war:
1. Apeacement - Germany got to buy all the iron ore they wanted and cheaply. After Finland entered the war on the Axis side Sweden even allowed limited troop transports through our territory (in retropect not our finest moment).
2. Boden Fortress - The German armys plans for taking Sweden concluded that taking Sweden was possible but that reducing Boden took far more time and resources than what was prudent to expend so far north and, as any WiF player knows, that the Kiruna-Gällivare/Malmberget ore fields is the price in Sweden.
So one comparison I can make is that it, as the Maginot, had strategic impact and not only local tactical impact like the Eben Emanuel for example. But, of course, in most senses it was vastly diffrent from the existing on-map fortifications.
I could go on with other arguments. But the WiF question might be. Would it have had a major impact on any major battles in the area with forces large enough to warrant notice in a corps/army size game? I think so. No attacking army would have been able to successfully cross the Luleå älv (Luleå river) within that hex and would have had serious problems using the port of Luleå before reducing the Fortress area and its garrison. This is not considering additional Swedish reinforcements to the area.
The bit I've highlighted in bold might be a counter argument to having fortifications all around this hex. If the hex has an area of 2500km, then the fort described above is of about 200 square km (if my back-of-the-envelope calculation is correctish), or 8% of the hex's area.
Also, are any of the fortifications in Boden along a hex boundary? I guess typically they are in the case of the Maginot etc, hence the difficulty of attacking into the hex. If not, then perhaps that hexside shouldn't be fortified.
Cheers, Neilster
With that argument I guess removing Sevastopol and Singapore is invalid too since they are smaller than the actual hex. No one would do that because, for example, the one thing to control in the Singapore hex is infact Singapore and its harbour. Same thing applies here to control and be able to manouver in the 'Boden' hex you need to control the Fortress. The railway lines intersected (still do) in Boden not in Luleå and the large bridges over river back then was inside the Fortress. I would guess that you'd pause at doing an cross river assault without at least containing the forces inside the Fortress and moving your army further away leaving your supply lines open for the garrison to destroy would not be prudent.
I will now propose making the resource hex of Norway a mountain hex. As Borger said some of the hex in the west is likely to be clear. But what is important when deciding the terrain?
-Possibly defending the resource? The resource is in my view representing the heavy water factory which was a rare commodity. The heavy water factory was in the mountains. The resource may also represent some mineral mines in the area. (Titanium I believe? important for aircraft _ but that may not have been exploited until after the war.) In any case defence of the resource would be in mountain.
-Secondly movement. If moving from Kristiansand to Stavanger you have to move through some serious rough terrain which will slow both infantry and motorized severely. There are no other movement directions worth considering.
I agree with you on this and won't mind if this hex is changed from clear to mountain. I this represents the area between Egersund and Flekkefjord, i. e. Åna-Sira etc. I have driven a car in this territory and it's definitely NOT armor terrain. So I would say that most of the hex is mountains and the smaller part of the hex is clear.
I also agree that Røros can be a forest hex. It won't hamper movement except for armored units.
What do you think about the clear hex in western Finnmark on the MWIF map today? Thsi is near Kautokeino. Do you think it warrants to be a clear hex? I think it's closer to a forest hex because it's not well suited for armor units and I haven't heard of nice farmlands near Kautokeino. The vegetation is sparse even though terrain is quite flat. I also believe Finnmarksvidda has some marshy terrain too, but I don't know if it's enough to make the entire hex marsh. So I think the main thing is to make some kind of terrain in the hex that would be suitable for movement of leg and armor units. I believe leg units won't be hampered by the terrain near Kautokeino, but armored units would. Therefore is a forest terrain a good way to implement this. Agree?
I also start thinking about the clear terrain hex in the far northern part of Norway.
I don't think that hex in Finnmark (close to Kautokeino) is terrain suitable for armor
breakthroughs.
I will now propose making the resource hex of Norway a mountain hex. As Borger said some of the hex in the west is likely to be clear. But what is important when deciding the terrain?
-Possibly defending the resource? The resource is in my view representing the heavy water factory which was a rare commodity. The heavy water factory was in the mountains. The resource may also represent some mineral mines in the area. (Titanium I believe? important for aircraft _ but that may not have been exploited until after the war.) In any case defence of the resource would be in mountain.
-Secondly movement. If moving from Kristiansand to Stavanger you have to move through some serious rough terrain which will slow both infantry and motorized severely. There are no other movement directions worth considering.
I had a look at Google Earth of the area. Google earth doesn’t have much detail in the area though. But you can get a 3d view if you turn on terrain.
I will also suggest making hex (40,34) a sea hex (hex dot). Reason is the following google earth picture.
This change (resource hex turned into a mountain) for me is a too big change.
Real Geography may warrant it, but this time WiF FE play will get changed as this hex is sometimes jumped onto by the Allies. I prefer to keep it as is.
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
By the way, I still have relatives in the Malmo area. In fact, a couple of my cousins from New Jersey are presently on vacation visiting the old ancestral home in Vitemule (spelling?). I was there once and listened to its "singing sands".
I told you not to take the blue pills with the red pills. [;)]
Cheers, Neilster
Oh, mixing the blue and red pills causes no problems, but if I then add the white tablets I break out in a patriotic ferver.
The sand in Vitemoula (spelling?) is of a strange granularity. If you scuff your feet while walking along the dry sand, kicking streams of sand along in front of you, the sand on sand interaction produces a whistling sound. Hence the term singing sands.
I also saw black sand on the southern part of the island of Hawaii (a.k.a., Big Island). Solid black sand, somewhat course, making up an entire beach. It's volcanic rock, in the form of very small pebbles, that haven't yet been broken up by the wind and waves into 'normal' sand. That beach has since been mostly (perhaps completely?) destroyed by more recent lava flows.
Here are the data about the votes about the mods to make to Scandinavia map.
Some of them saw 5-7 persons voting, and get 100% YES.
I propose that these get done, and that further discussion goes on for the others.
They are : Gothenburg, Vänern, Vättern, Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm, Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1, Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo, Strait from Helsingor (NW Copenhagen) to Helsingborg, Coast south of Vaasa 2, Mountain hex (35,37) and Sognefjord.
If no more discussions happen, I propose to accept all the mods that had 75% or more YES.
Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland
Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) : Make Major Port. It is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port.
7 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
City, Minor Port / Sweden
Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland
Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland
Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) : Become Russian. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Country / Finland
Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway
Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) : Add.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Lake / Norway
Vänern () (c92nichj) : Enhance outline drawing.
6 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Lake / Sweden
Boden (27,46) (Borger) : Renamme Luleå (Lulea).
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Sweden
Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway
Kirkenes (21,51) (ullern) : Add. For supply reasons.
3 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway
Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway
Turku (37,46) (Borger) : Add. Second largest Finnish city.
6 Voters : 67 % YES, 33 % NO.
Minor Port / Finland
Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail.
6 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Rail / Sweden
Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger) : Move 1 hex NW.
6 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Resource / Sweden
Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) : Move 1 hex SE.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Resource / Sweden
Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) : Keep.
6 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Strait / Sweden
Strait from Helsingor (NW Copenhagen) to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) : Add. Straits are between Dannish Helsingor and Swedish Helsingborg.
7 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Strait / Sweden
Clear hex (Røros, east of lake) 1 (34,39) (Borger) : Change to Mountain.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Terrain / Norway
Clear hex (Røros, east of lake) 2 (34,39) (Borger) : Change to Forest
4 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Terrain / Norway
Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
4 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Terrain / Finland
Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
4 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Terrain / Finland
Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) : Become All Sea.
5 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Terrain / Finland
Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) : Move the ice 1 hex SE. This glacier should be placed close to Swedish border.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Terrain / Norway
I also start thinking about the clear terrain hex in the far northern part of Norway.
I don't think that hex in Finnmark (close to Kautokeino) is terrain suitable for armor
breakthroughs.
I would make it forest.
I wont make any argument about this. If you think this is good. Then fine. (I have never been there so I wouldn't really now.)
Yes Patrice. I think it's a good thing to accept all that's more than 75% yes, with not to few votes, at this moment. The list is long enough already. It's nice that we get this going.
About my two suggestions. It was two not just one. Changing a hex to sea was the other one. Patrice didn't comment on that one? (And by the way, the thing about the mountain hex. Does your comment mean it's vetoed?)
