Andy Mac v PZB ....The Allies Fight Back

[frank1970]

Do you feel a raging hate towards this trainingscamps?






Good!, level them, but don´t forget there are different types of targets, too:
-ports (where are PzBs damaged ships? He should have some of them now)
-cities (manpower, HI)
-other airfields
-Taskforces
-
-
-
-


I hope you understand:
It doesn´t make too much sense to risk the war to please your rage!

[Andy Mac]

ORIGINAL: Frank

Do you feel a raging hate towards this trainingscamps?






Good!, level them, but don´t forget there are different types of targets, too:
-ports (where are PzBs damaged ships? He should have some of them now)
-cities (manpower, HI)
-other airfields
-Taskforces
-
-
-
-


I hope you understand:
It doesn´t make too much sense to risk the war to please your rage!

Oh it is a one off raid I will not be able to campaign against his Chinese AF's as he will put CAP on them after I raid once.

At present he is not CAPing his trainign bases in china <evil laugh>

A one off raid where I send 96 B29's at each of his 4 main training AF's 192 from Georgetown and 192 from Khota Bahru....

I FRY 4 bases after that I guarantee he will have CAP on those fields which will a cost him in lost pilots as his ops losses go up with pilots landing on damaged fields so he loses part of a crop of pilots and 2 stops him training as quickly as he needs to have some fighters on CAP.!!!!

Basically I will perform 3 days raids on China - this operation is known as OPERATION KINDERGARDEN

DAY 1 hit all 4 bases with 96 B29's each
DAY 2 hit 2 bases with as many operational bombers as I can get in the air.
DAY 3 hit one base with everything left.

DAY 4 hit Saigon with everything that will fly
DAY 5 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 6 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 7 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 8 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies

Withdraw all B29's as they cost to much in supply terms except one Group that will remain for night strat bombing campaign against industry in SEA and night air mining

Andy

[Andy Mac]

It is a part of my faith in game
&nbsp;
I wont ban gd attack training in houserules but it is my No1 absolute hate point as I think it breaks the already fragile air model. BUT It is un policable I mean I use FB's and F's on Ground Attack but only when I have an objective and the sole purpose is not to train pilots how do you tell the idfference what is reasonable use to one person is not to another.
&nbsp;
I am already walking a fine line in this game where I have dismounted several CVR Gps and I am using them to escort and sweep enemy bases in Malaya. It is an active theatre so I dont feel I am abusing the system they are there because I need fighters but in reality I could use P47's or F4U's for the same purpose I am choosing to use two Hellcat Wings because as a by product they will gain some combat experience so to a some extent I am being sanctimonious and hypocrytical because I AM de Facto training those pilots when I could use USAAF aircraft for the same mission.
&nbsp;
Its one of those things you need to live with in game
&nbsp;
I WILL do everything in my power to stop it ask Pauk I have tried to intercept his training in China several times to the extent that he is now having to base large numbers of bombers in theatre keeping Chengtu and Chungking AF's shut if he doesnt he KNOWS I will bring in 300 Fighters and stop him cold.
&nbsp;
Andy

[Andy Mac]

p.s. PZB is a truly great player and he is very honourable please dont take my rantings on this subject for anything disrespectfull to my opponent(s) he and Pauk for that matter have not stopped it in part because I HAVE NEVER asked them to I am sure PZB would argue it is the only way to deal with the far to bloody A2A model and equally I am sure that he is equally pissed off by the effectiveness of Heavies in Gd Attack (allied players you think 4E do well in anti naval well let me tell you massed 4E on Ground Attack the ONLY way to go as I hope to demontrate at Singapore in the near future !!!![:D][:D][:D])&nbsp;

[Andy Mac]

At pressent I have a lot of unit fragments scattered at Noemfoor/Wasile/South Borneo and various bases in the SRA
&nbsp;
One of my objectives for the next few weeks is to reconcentrate these units - my tail has gotten a little ragged at present and I am taking steps to deal with it.
&nbsp;
7th US Div currently at Darwin will be moving south to Townsville where it will move to CENTPAC.
3rd USMC and 11th Airborne are at Wasile - 3rd USMC will move to CENTPAC and 11th Airborne to Malaya as I think the paras will be more use attacking North Borneo and possible if I retake Ceylon for a nasty little variant that might - just might get me Karachi or Bombay !!!!
With the fall of Lautern I will now try to pick off one of the islands between Timor and Java
&nbsp;
Forces are loading at Darwin BF's, Inf and ABDA Corps HQ they will transfer to Malaya I want to keep PZB looking at Malaya as my jumping off point so I will continue to build it up to keep him focussed on my LEFT all the time my RIGHT gets ready for the sucker punch !!!!
&nbsp;
Andy

[Fishbed]

No no cunning plans

&nbsp;
Must we understand you don't call this...
&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;Oh it is a one off raid I will not be able to campaign against his Chinese AF's as he will put CAP on them after I raid once.

At present he is not CAPing his trainign bases in china <evil laugh>

A one off raid where I send 96 B29's at each of his 4 main training AF's 192 from Georgetown and 192 from Khota Bahru....

I FRY 4 bases after that I guarantee he will have CAP on those fields which will a cost him in lost pilots as his ops losses go up with pilots landing on damaged fields so he loses part of a crop of pilots and 2 stops him training as quickly as he needs to have some fighters on CAP.!!!!

Basically I will perform 3 days raids on China - this operation is known as OPERATION KINDERGARDEN

DAY 1 hit all 4 bases with 96 B29's each
DAY 2 hit 2 bases with as many operational bombers as I can get in the air.
DAY 3 hit one base with everything left.

DAY 4 hit Saigon with everything that will fly
DAY 5 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 6 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 7 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 8 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies

Withdraw all B29's as they cost to much in supply terms except one Group that will remain for night strat bombing campaign against industry in SEA and night air mining

&nbsp;
... "cunning"...?
Well i don't want to&nbsp;stick around when you'll get cunning for real [:D]&nbsp;[&o]

[marovici]

[/quote]

Oh it is a one off raid I will not be able to campaign against his Chinese AF's as he will put CAP on them after I raid once.

At present he is not CAPing his trainign bases in china <evil laugh>

A one off raid where I send 96 B29's at each of his 4 main training AF's 192 from Georgetown and 192 from Khota Bahru....

I FRY 4 bases after that I guarantee he will have CAP on those fields which will a cost him in lost pilots as his ops losses go up with pilots landing on damaged fields so he loses part of a crop of pilots and 2 stops him training as quickly as he needs to have some fighters on CAP.!!!!

Basically I will perform 3 days raids on China - this operation is known as OPERATION KINDERGARDEN

DAY 1 hit all 4 bases with 96 B29's each
DAY 2 hit 2 bases with as many operational bombers as I can get in the air.
DAY 3 hit one base with everything left.

DAY 4 hit Saigon with everything that will fly
DAY 5 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 6 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 7 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 8 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies

Withdraw all B29's as they cost to much in supply terms except one Group that will remain for night strat bombing campaign against industry in SEA and night air mining

Andy
[/quote]

Sounds good. Can't wait to see it. [:D]

[ChezDaJez]

I am already walking a fine line in this game where I have dismounted several CVR Gps and I am using them to escort and sweep enemy bases in Malaya. It is an active theatre so I dont feel I am abusing the system they are there because I need fighters but in reality I could use P47's or F4U's for the same purpose I am choosing to use two Hellcat Wings because as a by product they will gain some combat experience so to a some extent I am being sanctimonious and hypocrytical because I AM de Facto training those pilots when I could use USAAF aircraft for the same mission.

I admire your stance on not using gd atk for the sole purpose of training pilots. And I don't think that you are being sanctimonious at all when using Hellcats on ground attack or from land bases. You are using them in support of operations which is a totally different objective. Unfortunately, the Japanese player must train pilots in some manner.

I personally would love to see a dynamic pilot training program that is based upon the amount of supply and fuel available in the home countries. Obviously the USA should be able to train up thousands of pilots as they did historically. Japan should be able to train additional pilots in the same manner but have it limited by the number of supply and fuel points available in the home islands. This would also give the allied player another good reason for interdicting the flow of oil and resources to Japan. I would envision a pilot training program be set up somewhat along the lines of aircraft production... only more costly.

Chez

[Andy Mac]

p.p.s if you asked my Japanese opponents I am sure just as I am incredibly irritated by training on gd attacks I am 100% sure they would like me to tone down my stacking limits on AF's each person playing the game believes in different things !!!

[Andy Mac]

Its only cunning if PZB doest spot the buildup after the 2 AF's hit lvl 6 or 7 if he spots my build up I could 200 CAP fighters at each base so I wont call it cunnign until I get away with it with acceptable losses !!!!

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

No no cunning plans

Must we understand you don't call this...

  Oh it is a one off raid I will not be able to campaign against his Chinese AF's as he will put CAP on them after I raid once.

At present he is not CAPing his trainign bases in china <evil laugh>

A one off raid where I send 96 B29's at each of his 4 main training AF's 192 from Georgetown and 192 from Khota Bahru....

I FRY 4 bases after that I guarantee he will have CAP on those fields which will a cost him in lost pilots as his ops losses go up with pilots landing on damaged fields so he loses part of a crop of pilots and 2 stops him training as quickly as he needs to have some fighters on CAP.!!!!

Basically I will perform 3 days raids on China - this operation is known as OPERATION KINDERGARDEN

DAY 1 hit all 4 bases with 96 B29's each
DAY 2 hit 2 bases with as many operational bombers as I can get in the air.
DAY 3 hit one base with everything left.

DAY 4 hit Saigon with everything that will fly
DAY 5 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 6 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 7 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies
DAY 8 hit Singapore - Destroy Supplies

Withdraw all B29's as they cost to much in supply terms except one Group that will remain for night strat bombing campaign against industry in SEA and night air mining

... "cunning"...?
Well i don't want to stick around when you'll get cunning for real [:D] [&o]

[Andy Mac]

Chez thats how the game is modelled just now thats what the Train command is for !!!! It is unnacceptably slow but probably realistic and only gets 60 xp pilots but it is there and does work.

Issue with it is the lack of big training school groups to perform this training i.e. as I have said before create 20 x 100 IJN and IJAAF training schools base them in HI give them a mix of planes restrict them to only the training (and possibly kamikaze) mission and allow transfers of pilots to and from these groups and the pool have them all start with 0 or minimal active planes.

If Japanese player wants to invest airframes, supply and fuel in producing planes for these groups and use them to train rookies using the training command they can - set max XP for each training school to 70 xp (possinbly give bonuses for proportion of veterans in Group and allow transfer of elite pilots out of front line groups for this purpose)

Having done this Dramatically lower xp gain for ground attack by Fighters for both sides and eliminate it totally for supply missions.

That is the mcphie - "probably impossible to programme" method of fixing pilot training

[Andy Mac]

I would even say give the Japanese the 'free' 20 pilots a month they get now but make them higher xp to cover for some 'naturals' being found in training each month or veterans transferring and I would even say let the Japanese keep the 'free' pilots they get with newly arriving airgroups.

The big issue is an always has been the training model is unfair for Japan because they dont have the rear area groups to perform the training - so just give em to them

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Chez thats how the game is modelled just now thats what the Train command is for !!!! It is unnacceptably slow but probably realistic and only gets 60 xp pilots but it is there and does work.

Uh... no - not realistic. As game stands now, Japan can produce more trained pilots this way than the Allies.

USN *alone* (i.e. not counting USAAF, which was far larger) was geared to produce 150 pilots/month in 1940, 300/month by mid 1941, 800/month program initiated in Dec 1941, and in 1944, realizing the end of the war was approaching, they REDUCED pilot production to an average of 1700+/month - almost 60* pilots per day. Some pilots were flying patrol ac in the Atlantic, but most went to the Pacific. So where are these in the game?
source:
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/avchr5.htm

(*edited for typo)

[Andy Mac]

Lol thats a lot of pilots I would probably kill at this moment for 200 of them.
&nbsp;
I guess my point is we play the game we have warts and all I have never played Japan and probably never will - it just doesnt appeal to me I therefore have the utmost respect for those that do.
&nbsp;
I just need to live with the fact that when it comes to fighting over the HI I will have a naval airforce that is&nbsp;LESS experienced and is heavily outnumbered by the Japanese air forces they face&nbsp;is that realistic/historical NO is it the game we have YES therefore I need to try to stop whinging about having no Hellcats in my pool because I got SCREWED [:D][:D]&nbsp;on the historic production rate and not worry about sending my Green pilots into face the elite dogfighting ground attack specialists of the IJAAF and IJNAF.
&nbsp;
The next year is going to be SOOOO Bloody and a lot of fun as I go on a mad scramble for points !!!!
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

[Andy Mac]

At present all my carrier air sqns are at full strength (more or less) and only the replenishment sqns are in need of pilots and frames I have 19 Hellcats in the pool and no navy pilots. By the time I am ready to attack
&nbsp;
I have decided in a small change in plan to remove 2 more Essex class from the West to the East along with the last two fast BB's - I do need to watch his surface assets.
&nbsp;
Alaska isnt far away and I get Texas soon soon for what good it will do 12" guns......I also get several Baltimore class CA's [:D][:D]
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

[Andy Mac]

OK I am still at work but PZB sent the combat report lookie lookie lookie....

My tanks (and overwhelming air attack) got the job done at Khota Baru !!!!!

Now to eliminate the holdouts at Khota Baru/ Georgetown and Mersing and reconcentrate for the next operation....

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 11/04/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 17 encounters mine field at Kagoshima (58,43)

Japanese Ships
MSW Rikusen Maru
MSW Kaiyo Maru #1
MSW Bisan Maru
MSW Toshi Maru #5
MSW Toshi Maru #2
MSW Toshi Maru #1
MSW Toroshima Maru

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 53,42

Japanese Ships
PC PC-50
PC PC-46
PC PC-44
PC PC-43
PC PC-42
PC PC-39
PC PC-38
PC PC-35

Allied Ships
SS Baya, hits 12

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kweiyang , at 41,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 122
N1K1-J George x 71
D4Y Judy x 9
B7A Grace x 32
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 77
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 72

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported

Airbase hits 17
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 240

Aircraft Attacking:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kweiyang , at 41,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 459
J2M Jack x 112
D4Y Judy x 75
B5N Kate x 25
B6N Jill x 48
P1Y Frances x 9
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 36
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 36
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 72

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 23
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 486

Aircraft Attacking:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Singapore , at 23,50


Allied aircraft
Mosquito PR.IX x 1


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sampit , at 26,62


Allied aircraft
P-40N Warhawk x 18
B-25J Mitchell x 51


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
12 casualties reported

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 34

Aircraft Attacking:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Brunei , at 32,57


Allied aircraft
P-47D Thunderbolt x 23


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kendari , at 33,71


Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 11
Spitfire VIII x 8


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hollandia , at 49,79


Allied aircraft
P-40N Warhawk x 6
PB4Y Liberator x 6


No Allied losses

Runway hits 8

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wewak , at 52,81


Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 22
F4U-1D Corsair x 21
F6F-5N Hellcat x 18
Hurricane II x 14
Kittyhawk III x 20


No Allied losses

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 11

Aircraft Attacking:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 55th Division, at 81,84


Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 3
F4U-1D Corsair x 22
P-40N Warhawk x 11


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 18th/A Division, at 52,81


Allied aircraft
F-5A Lightning x 1


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 30,66


Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 6


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AG AG-2064, Shell hits 8
AG AG-5161, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
107 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x F4U-1 Corsair attacking at 100 feet
4 x F4U-1 Corsair attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 62,62

Japanese Ships
PC Hiburi
PC Ukuru
PC Chiburi
PC Awaji
PC Iki
PC Manju
PC Amakusa
PC Kanju

Allied Ships
SS S-37, hits 7, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Mersing

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 17756 troops, 143 guns, 208 vehicles, Assault Value = 417

Defending force 2761 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 45

Allied max assault: 722 - adjusted assault: 547

Japanese max defense: 31 - adjusted defense: 19

Allied assault odds: 28 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
102 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
63 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Khota Bharu

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 3554 troops, 0 guns, 168 vehicles, Assault Value = 101

Defending force 4783 troops, 1 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 28

Allied max assault: 130 - adjusted assault: 95

Japanese max defense: 16 - adjusted defense: 11

Allied assault odds: 8 to 1 (fort level 3)

Allied forces CAPTURE Khota Bharu base !!!


Japanese ground losses:
323 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Chez thats how the game is modelled just now thats what the Train command is for !!!! It is unnacceptably slow but probably realistic and only gets 60 xp pilots but it is there and does work.

Uh... no - not realistic. As game stands now, Japan can produce more trained pilots this way than the Allies.

USN *alone* (i.e. not counting USAAF, which was far larger) was geared to produce 150 pilots/month in 1940, 300/month by mid 1941, 800/month program initiated in Dec 1941, and in 1944, realizing the end of the war was approaching, they REDUCED pilot production to an average of 1700+/month - almost 60* pilots per day. Some pilots were flying patrol ac in the Atlantic, but most went to the Pacific. So where are these in the game?
source:
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/avchr5.htm

(*edited for typo)

Interesting link, thanks. Keep in mind that several hundreds, maybe thousands US pilots arrive with reinforcement squadrons in WitP.

Do you have more links regarding the US pilot training program?

[Andy Mac]

Its about 9 x 30 CVL's say 270
10 Fleet Carriers with 90 per so 900
Escort Carriers 30 ish each and there are what about 50 of them ? so 1500

Say all in including land based its about 3000 or 6 - 8 weeks worth of USN pilots need to be removed to account for new build....tell you what lets be generous I will accept only 500 per month how is that ? [:D][:D][:D]

[VSWG]

You forgot ship-based float planes...&nbsp;[;)]

I agree with that number - and your conclusion. Something for the RHS Tag Team Thread, me thinks...

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Chez thats how the game is modelled just now thats what the Train command is for !!!! It is unnacceptably slow but probably realistic and only gets 60 xp pilots but it is there and does work.

Uh... no - not realistic. As game stands now, Japan can produce more trained pilots this way than the Allies.

USN *alone* (i.e. not counting USAAF, which was far larger) was geared to produce 150 pilots/month in 1940, 300/month by mid 1941, 800/month program initiated in Dec 1941, and in 1944, realizing the end of the war was approaching, they REDUCED pilot production to an average of 1700+/month - almost 60* pilots per day. Some pilots were flying patrol ac in the Atlantic, but most went to the Pacific. So where are these in the game?
source:
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/avchr5.htm

(*edited for typo)

Interesting link, thanks. Keep in mind that several hundreds, maybe thousands US pilots arrive with reinforcement squadrons in WitP.

Do you have more links regarding the US pilot training program?

i had run across some sites a while back, but i haven't been able to find them right now (at work)... i never really dug out the numbers before, but i got interested after seeing a program about the Battle of Britain - at the beginning of the BoB, Britain was producing ~200 pilots per month, and Germany ~800/month (according to the program). i started thinking that the US figures must be woefully underestimated... and from this site they apparently are. i assume the USMC figures are part of this effort (as they trained at Navy bases), but still, 60 pilots per day for USN/USMC is kind of staggering.

i have a vague memory (???from Sakuro Sakai's book) that the IJN program was 120 pilots per year, but i could be wrong about that. You might be able to figure out what the program produced from some stats in Shattered Sword (they go into total numbers of IJN carrier pilots before and after the battle of Midway). i have no idea what the IJA program produced, but it didn't sound substantial from what i have read.