Evaluating Squad Automatic Weapons

[vahauser]

Goblin,
 
I have absolutely no problem with my opponents using whatever the game allows against me.  If the game allows it, then my opponent can use it against me.  I never cry foul.

[Goblin]

Interesting. The game allows reloading and replaying of PBEM turns. Thoughts?
 
 
Goblin

[vahauser]

Goblin,
 
Um...  I think you know what I meant...  I meant "IN" the game during actual play.  Heh.
 
However, you do raise an interesting issue.  One way to resolve that particular issue is to play online.

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Due to my fathers collection of firearms he acquired in his wars,I have fired almost all small arms (from the ETO) of WWII. The German LMG's had a fire select capability, so no, their rate of fire did not have to be too high to be sustained by the squad.
The German army did not consider the LMG as a support weapon, but rather the squad was support for the LMG,(the opposite of every other army, IIRC.)
The BAR had AP rounds as a standard issue in every theatre, and this has never been accurately portrayed in SP.(It would completely prevent an enemy from approaching in armoured HT's with impunity.)
Further, there should have never been a speed reduction in ANY squad support weapons team.(Had there been a problem with speed, the weapon would have never been assigned to the squad.)
This latter has always been a sore pont with me.
Only in a static line situation did the heavier (and movement hindered) support weapons come forth, generally.

Yeah, this was the point I raised originally (squad speeds), but Flashfyre clarified that for me. That being said, I wouldn't consider putting a .30 cal air-cooled MG inside a USMC rifle squad (that's what the BAR is for), BUT, I also dispense with the heavy water-cooled MGs as company support (great on the defense, not-so-great for an advance mission). This is why the heavies were kept in the weapons pool reserve during the latter part of the Pacific War.

However, my Marine MMGs and 60mm mortars have no problem in keeping up with the company advance (as it should be).

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Goblin,

Um...  I think you know what I meant...  I meant "IN" the game during actual play.  Heh.

However, you do raise an interesting issue.  One way to resolve that particular issue is to play online.

To Goblin : have you ever felt like you were being "baited"?
[:D]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Due to my fathers collection of firearms he acquired in his wars,I have fired almost all small arms (from the ETO) of WWII. The German LMG's had a fire select capability, so no, their rate of fire did not have to be too high to be sustained by the squad.
The German army did not consider the LMG as a support weapon, but rather the squad was support for the LMG,(the opposite of every other army, IIRC.)
The BAR had AP rounds as a standard issue in every theatre, and this has never been accurately portrayed in SP.(It would completely prevent an enemy from approaching in armoured HT's with impunity.)
Further, there should have never been a speed reduction in ANY squad support weapons team.(Had there been a problem with speed, the weapon would have never been assigned to the squad.)
This latter has always been a sore pont with me.
Only in a static line situation did the heavier (and movement hindered) support weapons come forth, generally.

Yeah, this was the point I raised originally (squad speeds), but Flashfyre clarified that for me. That being said, I wouldn't consider putting a .30 cal air-cooled MG inside a USMC rifle squad (that's what the BAR is for), BUT, I also dispense with the heavy water-cooled MGs as company support (great on the defense, not-so-great for an advance mission). This is why the heavies were kept in the weapons pool reserve during the latter part of the Pacific War.

However, my Marine MMGs and 60mm mortars have no problem in keeping up with the company advance (as it should be).

Glenn....during the Korean war, the 57mm RCL kept up with platoons,etc, I/m not sure about the larger RCL's though.
Task Force Smith could have used some of them, but IIRC they only had the basic bazooka..

[vahauser]

Erwin,
 
Not trying to bait anybody.  Another way to resolve the PBEM "reload" issue is to send turns to a referee using a time limit.  Another way to resolve the PBEM "reload" issue is to play very large battles that make re-loading a waste of time. 
 
My favorite way to resolve the "reload" issue is to not worry about it very much at all.  I just play my turns to the best of my ability given whatever situation my troops are in at the moment.  By simply assuming that my opponent is not reloading, that allows me to focus fully on the turn at hand instead of wasting my concentration speculating about peripheral issues. 

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: m10bob


[
Glenn....during the Korean war, the 57mm RCL kept up with platoons,etc, I/m not sure about the larger RCL's though.
Task Force Smith could have used some of them, but IIRC they only had the basic bazooka..

Does that mean you have an issue with the speed of the USA 57mm RCL in SPWaW?. It is 4. I get the impression that this weapon and its crew were usually toted on a Jeep. Was a modified version that could be broken down easier and transported by the crew on foot designed between 1945 and 1950?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

ORIGINAL: m10bob


[
Glenn....during the Korean war, the 57mm RCL kept up with platoons,etc, I/m not sure about the larger RCL's though.
Task Force Smith could have used some of them, but IIRC they only had the basic bazooka..

Does that mean you have an issue with the speed of the USA 57mm RCL in SPWaW?. It is 4. I get the impression that this weapon and its crew were usually toted on a Jeep. Was a modified version that could be broken down easier and transported by the crew on foot designed between 1945 and 1950?

The 57mm was commonly assigned at the platoon level, by the company, (depending on the units TOE and mission. Yes, the unit kept pace with the platoon.
Obviously the ammo would require this larger group to carry it, but the RCL was man-portable and broke down into pieces.
Dad liked and respected the power/accuracy of the thing, and kept them nearby whenever he could.
I do not know anything about the larger models, regarding their "speed" capability.
The RCL was tripod mounted and man-portable before it was ever on a Jeep.

In your term "issue", if you mean am I ready to go to war over the speed of the unit?
No, the designer of the game had reasons for giving it the speed, and I'm certain the question of moving the ammo actually dictated the speed, (in the designers mind.)
I was very happy to see Alby's mod get the speed of the LMG's and light mortars corrected. Now THAT had been a major flaw,(by someone who has humped them at much less than squad level).
I am not really that much of a confrontational guy anymore.
One mellows with age.[:)]

[Alby]

Its NOT "Albys" mod...
[;)]

[Steve Wilcox]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

I'm quoting from Mark Flowers' WWII Gyrene weblog for Dec 29 about the merits of the Browning Automatic Rifle vis a vis the MG34/42 as a squad automatic weapon.

"The BAR was never intended to be a light machine gun. It was designed as an automatic rifle, and employed as such in the US armed forces. Virtually every rifle squad in the US Army and Marine Corps was equipped with at least one BAR. No other Army in World War II came close to this ratio of issue for a squad automatic weapon. During its production, over 200,000 BARs were manufactured. The other major combatants on the war used bolt action service rifles, giving them a much lower volume of fire in comparison with our Soldiers and Marines. The infantry of the US Army and Marine Corps could produce a much higher rate of long range fire than any other infantry. When you consider the M1 rifle, the BAR, the M1919 machine gun and the M1917 at battalion level, the infantry battalion had an incredible amount of firepower. You have to factor this in when discussing infantry support weapons."

Seems weird to me that he's comparing the BAR to bolt-action rifles instead of comparing it to other SAWs when he says the part that I've put in bold. At least one automatic weapon per squad is a very typical ratio of issue, not unique to the US Army or Marine Corps. Does he not consider the LMGs in German, British, or Soviet rifle squads to be squad automatic weapons?
If he was talking about the M1 rifle, I'd agree the issue of semi-auto rifles was outstanding compared to other countries.

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Steve Wilcox

[Seems weird to me that he's comparing the BAR to bolt-action rifles instead of comparing it to other SAWs when he says the part that I've put in bold. At least one automatic weapon per squad is a very typical ratio of issue, not unique to the US Army or Marine Corps. Does he not consider the LMGs in German, British, or Soviet rifle squads to be squad automatic weapons?
If he was talking about the M1 rifle, I'd agree the issue of semi-auto rifles was outstanding compared to other countries.

Hmm -- well, I don't consider most LMGs as squad automatic weapons, as they are crew-served weapons, correct? I suppose the Bren is an exception to that. The implication is that a SAW is operated by one man. I think that's how "Doc" Flowers defines it. He's one of my best buddies, so I won't argue the point with him.

[Goblin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad_automatic_weapon
 

A squad automatic weapon (SAW, also known as section automatic weapon) is a light or general-purpose machine gun, usually equipped with a bipod and firing a rifle-caliber bullet. A SAW is used to provide suppressive fire for an infantry squad or section.

[Goblin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_purpose_machine_gun

The upper right of this one shows a clear example of a light MG34 compared to a M/H MG34. Note the box holding the rounds for the MG34 (the round 'clip'). Easily operated by one man.



Goblin

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Goblin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_purpose_machine_gun

The upper right of this one shows a clear example of a light MG34 compared to a M/H MG34. Note the box holding the rounds for the MG34 (the round 'clip'). Easily operated by one man.



Goblin

Well, maybe I should e-mail Mark after all. Interesting info, Goblin. BTW, each USMC rifle squad had a man designated as an "assistant BAR man". What did this guy do, tote the BAR man's mess kit? [&:]

[Goblin]

Spotter/security back-up, I would imagine. In practice he also probably carried as much ammo for the BAR as he could after his own ammo load. Just a guess. The German's had two on the LMG also, IIRC. One spotted/provided security/humped ammo.

Goblin

[vahauser]

I think this was mentioned earlier, but it bears repeating.  In the German Army, the squad machingunner was considered to be the squad's best soldier and, as such, the rest of the squad tended to be support.

[FlashfyreSP]

The German LMG team within the Grenadier Squad had an assistant gunner, whose job was to spot for the primary gunner and change the ammo magazines, and take over if the gunner was incapacitated. Some of the other riflemen were tasked with carrying extra ammo, which they would drop off near the MG team, then deploy to the flanks to provide security.

In the Marine and US Army squads, the assistant BAR man's job was very similar; help the BAR operator with ammo resupply, spot for him, and pick up the weapon if he was incapacitated.

The big difference, I believe, between the LMG and the BAR was in the mobility; the BAR was lighter, and could be fired like any other rifle, whereas the LMG usually required a brace of some sort, either the bipod, a convenient wall or windowsill, or even the shoulder of a comrade. This made the BAR capable of being used in confines the LMGs could not be used, as well as being fired in ways the LMGs couldn't be fired, very well, such as from the hip.

[FlashfyreSP]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

I think this was mentioned earlier, but it bears repeating. In the German Army, the squad machingunner was considered to be the squad's best soldier and, as such, the rest of the squad tended to be support.

Wouldn't "the best soldier in the squad" be the Squad Leader? [&:]

[Orzel Bialy]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
Well, maybe I should e-mail Mark after all. Interesting info, Goblin. BTW, each USMC rifle squad had a man designated as an "assistant BAR man". What did this guy do, tote the BAR man's mess kit? [&:]

Glenn, the Poles utilized their version of the BAR (the rkm wz28) as the squad light machine gun. Their MG squad consisted of a 4 man squad. The first was a squad leader (usually a corporal) then one soldier lugged the BAR itself and then two more gunner assistants lugged extra ammo for the BAR as well as their own rifles.

Goblin is also correct in the assumption that the assistants acted not only as ammo handlers but also acted as a spotter and flank support for the actual BAR gunner.