Gunshy

[rasnell]

Glad I listened to you guys. Received HTTR yesterday in the mail and I've been playing like crazy the last two nights. Just as you said, the learning curve is pretty modest and not nearly as intimidating as I thought. The key is that the AI follows your general plans at macro-management level very impressively.

There's a lot to learn, but it's easier than most war games that I've tackled. The challenge is quite tough and it's interesting, in replaying the tutorials a couple of times, how varied the AI reaction is to different game plans. I cannot wait to get into the more detailed battles, especially the really long historic campaigns where I know I'm going to get thumped.

I even stopped at the library to get "A Bridge Too Far," just so I can engross myself in the history and the game play.

Expect a lot of questions to be forthcoming as I try to figure things out.

Here's some starters: At the initial game screen, is it possible to have some global setting so that it always defaults to selected the Allied side in any of the scenarios? Seems that it's always set to Axis and was just wondering. One less click every time I start. (Minor)

Also, it seems necessary to always leave at least one unit at an objective even when you control everything in the vicinity and there is no enemy in sight. Any tips on holding objectives without leaving so many units behind?

[JeF]

ORIGINAL: rasnell
Glad I listened to you guys. Received HTTR yesterday in the mail and I've been playing like crazy the last two nights.

I'm happy to see you took the plunge and have a good time.
So, be very welcome.

There's a lot to learn, but it's easier than most war games that I've tackled. The challenge is quite tough and it's interesting, in replaying the tutorials a couple of times, how varied the AI reaction is to different game plans.

Wholeheartedly agreed. The learning curve is there : how will the TacAI execute the plan, given his programmed behaviour, the situation and the resources (time and units) it has at hands. Much like in real life.
It's not a thing you have to learn beforehand by reading 300 pages of manuals. It's a thing you learn by playing. Which means you can have fun right from the start.

At the initial game screen, is it possible to have some global setting so that it always defaults to selected the Allied side in any of the scenarios? Seems that it's always set to Axis and was just wondering. One less click every time I start. (Minor)

Unfortunately, no.

Also, it seems necessary to always leave at least one unit at an objective even when you control everything in the vicinity and there is no enemy in sight. Any tips on holding objectives without leaving so many units behind?

A bit frustrating, I know.
I usually place arty firebase at those locations : you leave them behind anyway. Or use the bases, they are usually good at defending as well. Not well equipped, but a lot of personnel. Higher level HQs are also an option.

You can also pay attention on the type of objective : is it an occupation or completion objective ? For the former, you need to occupy it all the time to collect the points. For the latter, you have however the option to leave it alone and occupy it right before the end of the sceanrio. But it is risky business : end game is sometimes too frantic to think about those rear objective you have to fullfill. I never use that.

I hope this helps,

JeF.

[rasnell]

Also, it seems necessary to always leave at least one unit at an objective even when you control everything in the vicinity and there is no enemy in sight. Any tips on holding objectives without leaving so many units behind?

A bit frustrating, I know.
I usually place arty firebase at those locations : you leave them behind anyway. Or use the bases, they are usually good at defending as well. Not well equipped, but a lot of personnel. Higher level HQs are also an option.

You can also pay attention on the type of objective : is it an occupation or completion objective ? For the former, you need to occupy it all the time to collect the points. For the latter, you have however the option to leave it alone and occupy it right before the end of the sceanrio. But it is risky business : end game is sometimes too frantic to think about those rear objective you have to fullfill. I never use that.
JeF.

I can't believe it. I accidentally stumbled across my own solution, but it's confirmed by your advice. I was either moving individual arty or bases to the spots and even abandoning them because of how low the points were. Thanks.

One more question, because it's not clear to me in the manual and this may differ from other war games. It does not seem so punishing to split your individual forces up from the unit commander. I see references to basic vs. complex attacks being the result of this action. But does it harm much to detach or take control of units, moving them away from their leader?

[JeF]

ORIGINAL: rasnell
It does not seem so punishing to split your individual forces up from the unit commander. I see references to basic vs. complex attacks being the result of this action. But does it harm much to detach or take control of units, moving them away from their leader?

I might not be the perfect specialist here. But, the only penalty I know for detaching units is the increasing load on the highest HQ on the map (representing you and your staff). Check the command tab, you should see load increasing. And when the load goes beyond the HQ capacity, it's ability to react can be severely hampered and it shows in the orders delays.
Same thing when units are detached aways from their organic boss, they suffer some penalty on orders delay.

So it is not like in traditional hex wargames, where crossing a given hex boundary you suddenly become out-of-command and suffer huge penalties. And when you go back one hex, suddenly all is fine again. It's rather subtle in HTTR.

Watch your HQs load and check page 63 of the manual about estimating orders delay.

Cheers,

JeF.

[MarkShot]

Rasnell,

I am happy that you are enjoy HTTR. Compared to the work load of managing 50-100 units to play a game, HTTR is refreshing breath of fresh air.

Basic attack = one level of command

Complex attack = two level of command (only seen in large scenarios and when one chooses to command at a relatively high level)

Splitting up organic force structures: Assuming one is playing with order delays:

(1) Each unit which directly gets orders from you increases the over all command load; effectively order delays for each and every unit once you exceed the senior HQ's inherent capacity.

(2) Order delays (for the given unit/force) is also increased by the distance a unit is from its organic HQ. Order delays (for the given unit/force) is increased when a unit is commanded by an HQ other than its organic HQ.

(3) Adding and detaching units from a force currently processing an order like an attack will result in "replans" (meaning let's stop in our tracks and completely redo the plan). This can have disasterous consequences in the middle of an attack. It is best to plan out what your forces will be and try to keep them as stable as possible. When add and removing units, do it at times that the force is not actively engaged with the enemy, but instead the battle has moved on.

---

You want to be careful about letting your order delays exceed the normal defaults. It can truely have the effect of paralyzing your ability to timely respond to ever changing events on the battlefield.

---

I see JeF has already responded. One thing to note about the force delay value shown in the game tab. For the value to be correct, there must be one complete propagation of orders. So, if you have stable forces throughout much of the game, then this value can be quite useful. However, if you are constantly restructuring your forces, then that value will be practically useless.

In any event, the value is just a best case estimate of how long from issuance to all line units receiving their orders. There are other issues to consider like:

(1) Unexpected enemy contact.

(2) HQ getting routed.

(3) Replans done by the AI.

(4) Excessive fatigue or cohesion causing automatic rest or reorg behavior.

(5) Travel time.

(6) An attack has multiple stages and this value measures just to stage 1, but the other stages can be quite time consuming.

---

But you'll get if figured out. Like everything there is no substitute for hands on experience to really learn something.

Take care.

[rasnell]

I probably haven't experienced the overload or orders delays too much yet because the tutorials are fairly straightforward and I've now started with Joe's Bridge and managed that one pretty well.

There are so many objectives that there is a great temptation to split a lot of these units up rather than following the command structure and HQ.

I'm glad I asked more about this because I can see where this will become an issue as the scenarios get far more involved. This game has a nice way of walking you into it step by step with the two tutorials and then Joe's Bridge.

I found a nice thread on the forum here about the historic chronology of the scenarios and also the ones easiest for the beginner.

I agree with both of you that this is so much easier to manage. This is the first war game where I see how much you really need to protect your flanks, watch for the backdoor and select good defensive positions. The Germans just come flying from all over when you take the top objective, sometimes from very surprising directions. What's amazing is how this varies when you replay the same scenario.

Now I understand why you guys rave about the AI in this game. I'm impressed and enjoying it as the new kid on the block. I even starting to think about COTA. Tell me more about what you see as the improvements for it and how challenging it is.

Markshot, I can't wait to study your AAR and strategy info even more closely, now that I'm getting the hang of this. I am afraid of one thing, however. I have this sense of dread as I explore farther into this game -- a sense that I may be about to go "A Bridge Too Far."

[MarkShot]

(sent PM)

[rasnell]

Not sure where to find a PM. Sorry. Not in my e-mail and I don't see anywhere on this forum where to find private messages.

EDIT: Found my inbox. How do you know when you have a PM on this forum, without checking your inbox?

[MarkShot]

(email sent) ... going to sleep ... Z

[rasnell]

Markshot or others:

Please expand on my strategy from overnight. I had a very bloody marginal win in Endhoven: Para Rescue. I followed Markshot's great tips and was able to storm and capture the bridge at Son without it being blown -- better than real life, heh? I kept them pinned with artillery fire and then raced in with an engineer in the mix.

But I was never able to push North up the main road toward Endhoven, the next objective. On one group of armored units, I did try setting losses to a minimum hoping they would try to break through with the Move command set right on top of Endhoven. There was just too much resistance on that main highway. No amount of pounding them with artillery mattered.

Would I have gotten a better result by setting them to probe, where they would have backed off and disengaged from the battle so I could pursue an alternate route?

What are all the other options to force your way through to an objective? There are not many alternate roads or routes for armored units to get to Endhoven and I was running out of time.

How's the rookie doing? I've had two wins, one marginal win and a draw playing: Joe's Bridge, Breakout from Joe's; Devil's Hill; and Endhoven: Para Rescue? I'm afraid to tackle the 9-day historical campaign, figuring I'll blow my win streak bigtime and that I'm not quite ready to come out of ground school yet.

[MarkShot]

Well, don't worry how you are doing if you are having fun. You are certainly progressing faster than I did when I bought RDOA.

At the moment, I don't have time to look at the battle, but it seems my AAR (as Bil says, no one ever writes AARs for defeats - I have by the way, but for beta testing) was a victory so perhaps you might find the answer there.

I vaguely recall my attack taking place on multiple axis. That can often be important.

Also, don't forget order delays and time. Remember order delays affects both sides. So, what do I mean?

(1) You need to plan ahead. Look at the situation now and ask what you think it will be in 2, 4, 6 hours. Then, you need to start issuing orders 1-6 hours in advance of how things will be. If you call this right and issue the proper orders, you will catch the enemy unprepared and off balance. However, if you get it wrong, you're screwed. That's why I generally say that order delays mainly acts as an amplifier of good moves and mistakes; it makes things better and worse.

(2) When making an attack against an enemy who is mounting an active defense (moving forces as opposed to a static defense), then every minute counts. Each minute you delay brings more enemy troops into position. Each minute you delay gives the enemy time to prepare his defense, dig-in, and deploy his heavy weapons.

(3) Perhaps not relevant in this scenario, but remember that even if you address #1 and #2 correctly, the enemy are still scrambling to mass in order to engage you and throw you back. Thus, don't forget the value of small action road blocks here and there to keep their reinforcements from reaching the battle in a timely fashion.

(4) One other point about attacks ... a good feint never hurts. This is especially true when done flanking against a static defense. You want the enemy to dislodge and give up his superior positions before the main attack goes in from a different axis.

Got to run. Good luck!

[Banquet]

rasnell, I'll leave u in the good hands of our resident grognard Markshot for the tactical advice, but wanted to say really glad you got the game and are enjoying it [:)]

Once you've played HTTR for a while you will really appreciate the extra features of COTA and in the coming months we will have BFTB to play with as well so you have lots of good gaming ahead of you!

Hey, do I get a commision for this? [:D]

[MarkShot]

Commission: Helping your fellow gamer is itself its own reward.

Resident Grognard: Nah ... I struggled long and hard to improve playing RDOA (and that was after joining the beta team). However, I have always been that way ... not admitting defeat or that I cannot figure something out. It was just my good luck that I happened to pick RDOA as my initial exposure to ground warfare in the large ... combination of two things really: (1) Battlefront was publishing it [liked CMBO] and (2) the demo look good.

[MarkShot]

Roger,

I actually played RDOA/HTTR for a couple of years before doing the GC. I believe that the smaller battles are better educational vehicles; although I know many customers rush off to play the GC first.

I recall getting a decisive victory in the 9-10 day GC when I actually tried it, but it was not the best experience I had with the game. I remember in writing the scenario review for the beta team ... my best battles are the ones where I manage an elegant solution to achieve a victory. A good indication of an elegant solution is usually a fairly lopsided casualty ratio. However, despite whatever I tried when I played the GC, my victory ultimately was very much the result of brute force techniques. For me, despite victory, having ultimately been reduced to a slugging match with the Germans made it feel like I had failed.

Enjoy!

[rasnell]

I'm following this forum for the chronology of the battles and playing in that fashion. I'm also working from the list of the best scenarios for beginners. I'm keeping notes of the victory point scores and kills at the end of each scenario so I can go back and see if I can improve and reduce the bloody losses.
 
Markshot, I think I got so entangled crossing the Son bridge that I could not break off to attack on several different points to get to Endhoven. This makes the game very challenging. I needed a lot of effort to push them away from the bridge so my engineer could unprime and secure it and then I got swarmed by the German reinforcements to the point that I did not feel safe in splitting off too many forces to try to get to Endhoven.
 
Even when I allowed 12 hours, I just couldn't get there.
 
Are these the three ways to have gotten up the main highway or to have gotten untangled:?
 
1. Set to move, low losses and see if it will force its way around.
2. Set to probe so it will disengage and find another route when you've pointed all the way to Endhoven.
3. Completely back away or withdraw and point them on a different route.
 
What exactly would be the settings so they would not try to force their way up the obvious and most direct route, to move around such resistance and delay, etc.?

[MarkShot]

I am not totally sure what you asking, but in any case I'll write something.

[M]ove is only an appropriate when the enemy is in the area under the following circumstances:

(1) You are conducting recon with a single unit and want to see how far you can get before meeting resistance.

(2) The enemy is also not deployed and is as disorganized as you are and you are trying to beat him someplace.

(3) You have far greater strength than the enemy and you are willing to take your chances with a running gun fight.

(4) You are trying to conduct a hasty attack and are willing to pay the price that such an action will incur.

I think when this thread started, you said that you play CMBB/CMAK. You would not order your infantry to move or run if in close contact with the enemy. In CM, you would order them to stay put, advance, or assault. This situation is somewhat analogous. With the above exceptions, think of [M]ove as a rear area type of order.

If you expect serious resistance, then you choice is not [M]ove. I would say they are:

(1) Assault and break the enemy's resistance.

(2) Bypass. Usually best done with another force, since the engaged force is probably getting knocked around pretty good. (This is why you do recon. You want to know what lies ahead before you get there. Find the clear routes.)

(3) Fight in place during the day, and at night fall try to disengage under cover of darkness and bypass with the original force.

Options for making forward progress up a route that the enemy are expecting you:

(1) Get there before the enemy thinks you will arrive and be gone before he planned to defend.

(2) Conduct a series of assaults which pass through each others line. As one loses momentum, it begins to consolidate and secure its gains, the next attack kicks off an maintain the pressure on the enemy.

---

I hope that helps.

[rasnell]

Way to go, Markshot. Thanks to your advice on my replay of Endhoven: Para Rescue, I've now suffered my first decisive defeat, absolutely stomped following your tips. When I blindly do the unexpected as a new player, I saved the bridge and won the game.

This is kind of how I play golf. The more I practice, the worse I get, picking up bad habits.

By splitting my forces and attempting to get into Oedenrode (?) -- not Endhoven as I wrongly said earlier -- I didn't have enough strength at Son Bridge and they blew it up.

My question about the arrival of the bridge-building crew: How long does it take to build a bridge? How do you get them to sit on the bridge and do their job? Why must they take the really long route around to a different bridge and work from the wrong side? Why can't they work from the South and Allied controlled side?

I had them protected sufficiently. The task bar correctly showed bridge construction but they kept digging in and eventually did start building the bridge, but 12 hours wasn't enough time. I saw from the slider, when hovering over the bridge, that they were probably 1/10 of the way done after 10 hours. Seems impossible to me in a two-day scenario when they arrive as a reinforcement in the second day.

Lots of new questions now. But I'm afraid to ask you -- you messed up my winning streak.[:D]

Once the bridge was blown, I had no chance for Oedenrode because that's where the Germans concentrated. So splitting forces to assure an attack in all directions misfired in two ways: Not enough to save Son Bridge and everybody was massed at the only remaining objective. Despite getting clobbered, this is fun that the AI reacts so dramatically differently and intelligently.

[MarkShot]

Well, I have yet to have a chance to actually review the scenario you are playing, but except for the AARs (which are for game promotional purposes), I try to develop the Mini-Guides as a collection of techniques that the player may utilize and describe under what situations they should be employed. So, perhaps, you are the victim or bad advice, or perhaps you failed to ensure that the necessary prerequisites were in place before trying something. Hard to know ...

I recall that was a short scenario. Not the ideal situation to build a bridge. Practically speaking, you should never be building a bridge that was standing at the start of scenario.

I believe engineers need to deploy before they can do their work. So, if not deployed or they have to move, then they aren't building.

If you are having problems with pathing, then try a scenario as an exercise with order delays off and experiment with the various pathing options and how they work. In HTTR, I generally didn't fully rely on the AI to get the pathing I wanted. I often put waypoints at key road junctures and sometimes I would short circuit the pre-programmed pathing (see Mini-Guide). Also, COTA has a pathing tool that will allow to explore what path would be used prior to issuing orders; a nice feature.

Keep at it!

[rasnell]

Just teasing about your bad advice giving me my first trouncing. Why would the bridge construction unit even appear in a short scenario if not a viable option? I got it in position pretty quickly but 12 hours wasn't nearly enough time. Ever seen it work and how long does it take?

[Arjuna]

Building a light road bridge can take 24 hours. It all depends on how many engineer units you have. If it's just the bridging column then it can take a long time. Always best to allocate at least one field engineer unit to assist.