back stab

[schury]

HELP! once you have war with Russia, how to prevent or delay the second battlefield opend via Greece or Portugal?[:@][:@][:@][:@][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

[Uncle_Joe]

Well, Hitler fretted the same thing with regards to Greece after it was clear that Italy alone was not going to subdue them. In the end, he decided to attack Greece himself to make sure the Brits couldnt get an 'in' there. It delayed Barbarossa from the planned Spring offenseive to Summer, with the well-known disastrous results. Of course in the game, you dont have to commit all that much to Greece to take it so you likely wont have to delay your attack on Russia so I definately recommend taking it out as a preventitive measure.
 
 As for Portugal, I haven't really seen it be a problem. Do you mean the Allies invade Portugal to get an easy foothold? I suppose thats possible but it should have costs to them in terms of minor Allies so its not a no-brainer IMO. If worst comes to worst you can rip through Spain in 1940 and seize Gibraltar and Portugal but that still leaves you with a large area to garrison.

[schury]

if the Wallies do care about the reaction of the "minor Allies" then Greece is not a problem, too. but i think a good WA player would try his best to destory German resources and back stab them. even at the cost of lose some resources. they don't need them at early time. and they can resign the trade agreements with them latter. but if Germany lose Spain, 3 resource and a great threat! you may pay less attention to Greece once you put a relative strong troops in Yog, but to Paris, you must keep it safe.. i can't find a good way to stop them in 1942 if they try this. and i am sure i can't solve Russia problem in 1942[:(]

[Petiloup]

An invasion of Greece with the British while Germany is just launching Barbarossa is one of my favorite moves and it's fairly easy especially if the Border War event with Italy didn't take place. As a result it most of the time saves Russia from a disaster and while the British will have probably to evacuate Greece if Germany wants it's still achieving it's purpose.

On the other side I never did attack Portugal to crush Spain and then threaten France because I feel Greece being closer to Russia it forces the German to distract troops from it's Frontline while he still needs to garrison the rest of Europe.

Now I think there is an easy solution for this issue... to simply declare that the Allies (not Russia) can't attack a Pro-Allied, Allied Leaning or Balanced country. So this limits a declaration of war against only Pro-Axis or Axis Leaning countries. We tend to forget that Great Britain and the US still were democracies (still are) during WW2 and as such can't declare war so easily.

The only exception that happened in history I could see would be Persia to open a Land Lease road to Russia and even so in real it was not much of a war.

This simple rule would give back a meaning to achieving a Trade Agreement with someone or not as if the Allied gain one with Portugal or Greece then they get a chance they would enter the war on their side which would indeed open a second front. Only drawback is that it doesn't give any good reason for Germany to see one with those 2 countries as it opens the possibility of an invasion without any real gain. So it could be interesting to link a GE trade agreement to a weapon deal between that country and Germany for defenive purpose. Maybe propose that GE loose 1 ART, 1 AA and those are given to that country in question but GE recovers 1 Pop pt per unit given. Make it a choice for Germany.

Just ideas.

[schury]

western france usually don't have that much troops to provent an attack from land, so that surely draws attention,and spain is more easy to reinforce then Greece, meanwhile the allies can reduce 3 resources from Germany. 

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: schury

western france usually don't have that much troops to provent an attack from land, so that surely draws attention,and spain is more easy to reinforce then Greece, meanwhile the allies can reduce 3 resources from Germany. 

True but with an invasion of Spain the GE can still choose to give ground if it means he can deliver a knockout blow against Russia in the meantime. With Greece you are almost directly in the back of the Frontline in Russia which the German can't ignore.

Anyway the point was that giving the possibility to the British to invade Portugal or Greece even if they are proallied is a big risk for the German. Greece can be taken care off easily but not Portugal as Spain is in the way.

Prohibiting the Allied to invade Neutrals is an easy fix.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: Polonthi
Prohibiting the Allied to invade Neutrals is an easy fix.

There is already the neutral invasion cost (in supplies), which could be increased.

Another possible tweak, and I'm not sure whether it would work or not (can't see why not, though) would be to make some neutrals that have population harder to invade by giving them a militia spawn like China. Particularly thinking of Spain and Portugal (there is a greater effecct though ... e.g. if Spain joins Germany, it would still get the spawn if attacked by WA).

Could also tweak Spain's poli volatility and make it pro-axis after vichy, so an invasion of Portugal could result in Spain joining Germany.

Just dropping a few more ideas.

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

There is already the neutral invasion cost (in supplies), which could be increased.

Another possible tweak, and I'm not sure whether it would work or not (can't see why not, though) would be to make some neutrals that have population harder to invade by giving them a militia spawn like China.

Indeed the supply cost for a declaration of War can work also at least as long as the US is no joining the War. I can see Churchill invading a neutral but not quite the US but it can work if the price for attacking Neutral or leaning allied countries is different than for Axis Leaning.

Some may argue that attacking a proallied country is not creating adverse results with other neutrals but does the Allies really care if Venezuela or Chile goes back to Balanced state instead of Allied Leaning? I won't.

Popping MIL is indeed tricky as you said it does pop during each attack, not only once.

[Uncle_Joe]

Some may argue that attacking a proallied country is not creating adverse results with other neutrals but does the Allies really care if Venezuela or Chile goes back to Balanced state instead of Allied Leaning? I won't.

 
It depends on how close to the line you are running with Factories to Resources. Losing a few Resources per turn for the rest of the game is not an insignificant cost in a close game IMO. The question is whether the payoff for attacking Portugal outweighs the costs. At this point, I'm not really sure. Its still putting you 2 turns away from anything critical to Germany. And you'll still have to pay supplies to move and attack into Spain and to repair the Rail in Spain. From there, you'll still have to pay supplies to attack France again from Spain (and after telegraphing the move for a turn). Add all that up and its a fairly significant cost as well.
 
The alternative (a direct invasion of France) may or may not be more appealing depending on what the Germans have as a garrison force. Certainly if they have it stacked to the gills, then Portugal makes sense, but barring that, I'm not convinced that the latter approach is much more economical in the long run.
 
 

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

The alternative (a direct invasion of France) may or may not be more appealing depending on what the Germans have as a garrison force. Certainly if they have it stacked to the gills, then Portugal makes sense, but barring that, I'm not convinced that the latter approach is much more economical in the long run.

Indeed Portugal is making sense in such event, if not a direct landing in France is much more efficient. I even recourse one time to invade Southern France as being much more easy at that moment than Occupied France or Italy.

If to help Russia I believe landing in Greece is much more interesting but as you say above if you can't invade German occupied regions directly then attacking Portugal is a nice way to land troops easily. Still long way to Germany but at least you can put some pressure on the GE player.

Now I surely don't say it's a must but the US attacking an "Allied Leaning" Portugal to win an easy beachhead is still something I have a hard time to agree on.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: Polonthi

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
Another possible tweak, and I'm not sure whether it would work or not (can't see why not, though) would be to make some neutrals that have population harder to invade by giving them a militia spawn like China.

Popping MIL is indeed tricky as you said it does pop during each attack, not only once.

I don't have time to play with this right now to confirm, but I think it can be made to work so that the militia is only generated when the nation in question is neutral (i.e. it has not joined an alliance).

for example in wawgoldscendat39.txt, add the red lines:

// Free chinese troops in attacked region (N free militia)
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_CHI,China,2,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_UN,United States,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_UN,Canada,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_GER,Germany,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_JAP,Japan,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_NEU,Spain,2,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_NEU,Portugal,2,0


If it works as I think it does, then you can also make it specify that militia is only generated when a particular Player (Ger/Jap/Rus/Chi/WA) attacks (in this case, "0" means any player).

For example, if militia is only generated when the WA attack:

// Free chinese troops in attacked region (N free militia)
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_CHI,China,2,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_UN,United States,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_UN,Canada,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_GER,Germany,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_JAP,Japan,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_NEU,Spain,2,PLAYER_UN
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_NEU,Portugal,2,PLAYER_UN


You also need to add 1 pop point to Portugal for this to be meaningful.

I'll play with this later and see if it works. It actually seems like a nice way to give Neutrals a better defense if attacked, while providing fewer units if they join a Player voluntarily (e.g. Spanish coup).

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
for example in wawgoldscendat39.txt, add the red lines:

// Free chinese troops in attacked region (N free militia)
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_CHI,China,2,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_UN,United States,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_UN,Canada,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_GER,Germany,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_JAP,Japan,1,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_NEU,Spain,2,0
MAKE_MILITIA,PLAYER_NEU,Portugal,2,0

Couldn't resist. Tried it. It works.

WA attacked Portugal. Militia was spawned when Portugal was neutral, it was not spawned the next turn at which time Portugal had already become German.

[schury]

if i am good, i would rather not accept Portugal[;)] 

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

Couldn't resist. Tried it. It works.

This is indeed nice. Now giving 1 or 2 MIL more is unlikely to stop an invasion and giving more is unrealistic but it's still nice indeed.

[schury]

that's not the solution you generate against human players i think......[:(]

[Uncle_Joe]

Now I surely don't say it's a must but the US attacking an "Allied Leaning" Portugal to win an easy beachhead is still something I have a hard time to agree on.

 
If you interpret it as 'attacking' then yeah its probably not 'realistic'. But since its an unopposed invasion, its easier to just envision it as the WAllied putting pressure on Portugal to allow them to land. The Supply cost is the cost of that pressure and the potential loss of minor allies is the 'political cost' of pressuring a friendly nation.
 
Honestly if the in-game effect is not 'broken', then I'm less concerned about the 'realism' of the WAllies ostensibly attacking a friendly nation. A lot of a-historical things happen in the game and IMO as long as the cost is balanced with the benefit, then its working fine.

[schury]

hey, guys, can we focus a little bit on how to prevent a attack via Portugal?........[:o]

[BenTaylor]

I suppose one way is to keep overflying the sea with CAP from France which can be part of disrupting Atlantic shipping anyway. Although if you want something better than a HB to do that you will need some 3+ speed fighters and CAG.

I am assuming you don't have control of Gib or Spain, or any of North Africa because it is still Vichy.

Getting a grip of Gib will really help with this. Mind you if you can get that far usually you will not have to worry about the Wallies getting a landing on Portugal because you are trashing them.

Perhaps one of the game mods should be some kind of high likelihood of Spain turning Axis in the early part of the game if Portugal is taken but the conditions for this are I think hard to describe.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: BenTaylor
Perhaps one of the game mods should be some kind of high likelihood of Spain turning Axis in the early part of the game if Portugal is taken but the conditions for this are I think hard to describe.

For Germany, a benefit of taking W France (as opposed to E France) is that Spain might shift to Pro-Axis (from Leaning-Axis).

Then, if the WAllies land in Portugal there is a chance that Spain will join Germany.

With the new patch, it would be quite possible to define events to do all sorts of things when WAllies control Portugal. It would not be able to distinguish whether the WA control arose voluntarily or via invasion, however.

Maybe one way would be to make a new event, if WA own Portugal then Spain moves 1 diplomatic step away from Germany (to placate the WA and avoid being a target) and spawns 6 (or so) militia (response to the realistic fear and expectation of being trampled over). After the USA enters those 6 militia won't mean much, but in the early game it could make an invasion tough, particularly if Spain also spawns 6 insta-militia (2x pop) when attacked as a neutral.

In addition, those 6 militia would go German if the coup occurs, so the WA may not want to hang out in Portugal before the USA enter (although we should note that if the diplomatic shift makes Spain "balanced" then the coup cannot occur).

It all seems like reasonably realistic diplomatic responses to perceived potential aggression.

[BenTaylor]

The Portuguese allowed the British to operate from the Azores during the war didn't they? Britain invoked the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance of 1373 - odd but true.

Perhaps this should be some kind of possibility without occupying mainland Portugal but I don't know if the game mechanics currently allow this.