HMS Warspite at RHS Mod

[Fletcher]

Hi, I meet HMS Warspite in Aden Port, when really she was at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard -Bremerton- where repairs and modifications there began in august 1941 and ended in December, (modifications included the remplacement of her worn out 15in guns). She was still at the shipyard when Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese. After working-up around the west coast of North America, HMS Warspite departed the area to join the Eastern Fleet in the Indian Ocean.

Can she begin at West Coast instead Aden ? .. or is it a problem ? ...or same reason has been used by Modders to begin at Aden ?.

Thanks !

[Fletcher]

For another hand we can meet HMS Hermes anchored at Colombo (Ceylan), but she was not there at this time. She spent Christmas 1941 in Selborne dry dock -Simonstown- refiting. HMS Hermes, at this time commanded by Captain R.F.J.Onslow, was bak on active service in the spring of 1942 as part of Force B, based at Ceylon.
If I remember correctly, at CHS Mod she appears like reinforcement with an estimated time of arrival of 85 days at Aden port. Could be this more historical?.
Thanks, I wait my comments could help if I´m not wrong

[Fletcher]

HMS Emerald appears in RHSCVO like reinforcement (ETA Aden 68 days delay) when she was, in December 1941, with Eastern Fleet (East Indies Cruiser Sqdn under VAdmiral G.S.Arbuthnot) with HQ at Triconmalee. She spendt time at 1941 escorting troops convoys to the Middle East and stood by in the Persian Gulf during the operations in Iraq in April 1941. After Japan´s entry into the war, in december 1941, HMS Emeral joined the Easter Fleet as part of the "Fast Group", and in March 1942 was the Flagship. In Aug 1942 the ship returned home to refit a Portsmouth. 
 
I am trying to look up more info about HMS Hawkins. I know she served in the East Indies Cruiser Sqdn at Dec 1941, but i need to gather more info about.
 
Thanks !
 

[rockmedic109]

Warspite begins at Seattle with {I believe} 10 SYS damage in CHS 2.08.

[Fletcher]

rockmedic109, yes, I think this is accurate, but in RHS Mod, HMS Warspite begins dec 7th 1941 at Aden (so far away from her actual harbor).
Cheers !

[el cid again]

These are not generally RHS fieldings - simply WITP as inherited via CHS. If we have better data we can fold it in - and in many cases we have done. We sometimes get into big trouble with popular ships like Hermes though - people object to losing what they are used to having! What we need to know is when the ships (case by case) were available for ops in PTO?

[Fletcher]

All right, I think could be possible to get accurate info about capital ships and probably cruisers too. I only tried to support with my aknowledges several beginnings positions from these ships (HMS Warspite, HMS Hermes and HMS Emerald...and probably HMS Hawkins)... I could try gather more info about more ships if these could help.
Excuse me for my poor english,
Thanks for answers,
Cheers
 

[bradfordkay]

Cid, upon which version of the CHS is the RHS based? I know that in v2.08 the Warspite starts in Seattle (Bremerton) on Dec 7, '41.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Cid, upon which version of the CHS is the RHS based? I know that in v2.08 the Warspite starts in Seattle (Bremerton) on Dec 7, '41.

RHS began with CHS 155 - and was updated to elements of CHS 177 - both unpublished standards used by Andrew - and both themselves updated many times. The RHS branch took place a very long time ago - and in the meanwhile CHS has evolved in a number of respects - sometimes even making changes to what RHS was doing. In a very real sense RHS is a CHS variant - and level 5 retains the structure of Andrew Brown's Extended Map System - level 6 uses this structure but adds a primative map edge movement track - and level 7 uses most of this structure except for Australia and New Zealand and the addition of a more complex map edge track system - and adds the Madagascar mini map modeled on Andrew's concept with the Panama mini map.

WITP is way too big to review every field of every record. Often errors are found to originate all the way back to stock. Other times they originate inside CHS or RHS groups - which involve various people at various times. People write as if I knew this field said that when, mostly, I never ever looked at the field in question (there being vast numbers of them).
I was attempting to explain that things where Hermes starts is not something reviewed or decided - and it is the same in CHS - and possibly also stock. I do see that Warspite starts in Seattle in CHS 177 - I don't know where the Aden field value came from - wether an earlier CHS or possibly one of the times the files were in RHS but not owned by me. I don't care either. The RHS standard is "if it is better than what we have, it is in" - no one has any feelings to hurt - no one owns the data - and we change it to the better standard when we are sure it is right. It is always proper to challenge a field value. Just don't assume we made it the way it is on purpose. Probably we didn't.

I have already changed Hermes, Warspite, and Dorsitshire - although some of the new dates are tentative. I have posted the Hermes matter on its own thread as it might interest other modders or Matrix - it starts in all and it should not.

[m10bob]

Warspite was indeed at Bremerton:



1941, Warspite departed Alexandria, and began her journey to the USA to be repaired at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, Bremerton. Repairs and modifications there began in August and ended in December, which included the replacement of her worn out 15 in guns. She was still at the shipyard when Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese. After working-up around the west coast of North America, Warspite departed the area to join the Eastern Fleet in the Indian Ocean.


http://www.answers.com/topic/hms-warspite-1913

[el cid again]

That isn't the present issue. It is placed there in CHS - and now also in RHS - but both of us are wrong to start the game there in this sense: it was not operational - and it spent an as yet undetermined amount of time working up. Once we find out when it became regarded as ready for operations, we can set the date properly. Note the words

"after working up on the US West Coast" -

that is not available for a player to send to operations - so when did that end?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

That isn't the present issue. It is placed there in CHS - and now also in RHS - but both of us are wrong to start the game there in this sense: it was not operational - and it spent an as yet undetermined amount of time working up. Once we find out when it became regarded as ready for operations, we can set the date properly. Note the words

"after working up on the US West Coast" -

that is not available for a player to send to operations - so when did that end?

Very next sentence from the site I provided:

In January 1942, Warspite joined the Eastern Fleet, becoming the flagship of Admiral Sir James Somerville, who had, in 1927, commanded the Warspite. As part of the Eastern Fleet, Warspite was based in Ceylon and was part of the fast group of the Fleet, which also included the two carriers Formidable and Indomitable, while four slow Revenge-class battleships and the old carrier Hermes comprised the slower group.

Somerville soon decided to relocate his Fleet for its own protection. He chose the Addu Atoll, part of the Maldives, to be his new base. Despite the threat of Japanese attack, Somerville had sent two heavy cruisers, Cornwall and Dorsetshire and the carrier Hermes back to Ceylon. In early April, two Japanese naval forces began the Indian Ocean raid. One force was led by a light fleet carrier, the Ryûjô and included six cruisers, while the second group included five carriers which had launched the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, and four battleships. They were deployed to the Indian Ocean to search for Somerville's Eastern Fleet, at that time, the only significant Allied naval presence in the area. The first sighting of the Japanese occurred on 4 April 1942, and orders were given for the two detached cruisers to return to the Fleet. The Fast Group, including Warspite, set sail from their base with the objective of launching a strike against the Japanese forces within the next few days. All three ships that had been detached from the Fleet, the Cornwall, Dorsetshire, and Hermes, were eventually sunk by Japanese forces with the loss of many lives. An attack on the Japanese forces by Somerville's fleet never occurred, and the Japanese soon left the region altogether, after failing to find and destroy the Eastern Fleet. The rest of Warspite's time in this theatre was largely uneventful, with only limited naval operations by the Royal Navy occurring in that theatre. Warspite departed the area in 1943, heading once more for the Mediterranean.

[el cid again]

The very next sentence is not a specific date - nor location. We can give her to players at any US West Coast port - and she can make her way to Columbo if they want - or not - by various routes. But when was it done working out? It appears on a day - what day? Nor is US West Coast a specific location. Where was she when she finished working up and set sail for Columbo?

[el cid again]

Looks like your source material may be incorrect. She did not compete repairs until February 1942 and then "was assighed to the Eastern Fleet." There had been battle damage that sent her to the yards. Looks like we got her armament wrong too - no MG - replaced by single 20mm. And radar was added at this time.


Hmmm - in RHS we got the 20mm right - but not the radar. Wonder what it was?

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Looks like your source material may be incorrect. She did not compete repairs until February 1942 and then "was assighed to the Eastern Fleet." There had been battle damage that sent her to the yards. Looks like we got her armament wrong too - no MG - replaced by single 20mm. And radar was added at this time.


Hmmm - in RHS we got the 20mm right - but not the radar. Wonder what it was?

The Hermes wasn't sent to Simonstown because of any battle damage. She had collided with the AMC Corfu and needed a new bow[8|].

If she really received radar, Type 279 would've been the most likely choice.

Edit: Ok, seems that I was wrong. The collision with the Corfu happened in 1940 and the Hermes was in Simonstown for the second time in Dec 1941.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
If she really received radar, Type 279 would've been the most likely choice.

While updating radar data for the next CHS revision, I came across a reference to the Warspite getting Type 281, so that is what I added to Warspite at game start. This was only an online reference, so I can't vouch for its accuracy. If it really was a Type 279 instead I am happy to be corrected.

As mentioned, a few revisions ago I also added a small amout of system damage to simulate her repairs being almost complete.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
If she really received radar, Type 279 would've been the most likely choice.

While updating radar data for the next CHS revision, I came across a reference to the Warspite getting Type 281, so that is what I added to Warspite at game start. This was only an online reference, so I can't vouch for its accuracy. If it really was a Type 279 instead I am happy to be corrected.

As mentioned, a few revisions ago I also added a small amout of system damage to simulate her repairs being almost complete.

Was just a guess about probably radar outfit of HMS Hermes (despite the thread name) because Cid querried about this. Actually I'm not even sure if the Hermes had any radar. But will try to find out about Warspite.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Was just a guess about probably radar outfit of HMS Hermes (despite the thread name) because Cid querried about this. Actually I'm not even sure if the Hermes had any radar. But will try to find out about Warspite.

Oops! Sorry I misread your post. I thought that you were talking about Warspite.

I would be interested in any radar information, as I don't have a decent reference library and I found radar information VERY difficult to track down.

Andrew

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

I would be interested in any radar information, as I don't have a decent reference library and I found radar information VERY difficult to track down.

Andrew

Yes, made the same experience. But you may try this

http://navalhistory.flixco.info/H/12055 ... 869/a0.htm

website (if you didn't knew about it already). The best website I was able to find in this regard.

Maybe a little bit difficult to navigate and slow-loading, but many sources named and probably quite accurate.

K

[el cid again]

ABOUT HMS WARSPITE REFITING
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DEC 1941: Desmount all 12,7mms machineguns. Mounted 11 Oerlikon 20/65 at manual single mounts. Changed 15in gun tubes by wore out.

(Reference: "LA MARINNA", Gruppo Editoriale Fabbri, S.p.A, Milan, 1978
Editorial Delta, S.A Barcelona, 1983)

After being damaged during the battle for Crete in May, 1941, HMS WARSPITE proceeded to Bremerton Naval Shipyard, just west of Seattle, Wash. for battle damage repairs. Just prior to arriving there on 11 June, 1941, she entered HMC Dockyard, in Esquimalt, British Columbia, which is about 3 miles west of Victoria, British Columbia, on Canada's west coast (and about 60 miles NW of Seattle/Bremerton). This dockyard was established by the Royal Navy in the middle to latter half of the 19th century, to support the Royal Navy's Pacific Squadron, and was turned over to the RCN, on it's establishment in 1910.

Warspite paid a port visit to HMC Dockyard immediately prior to beginning her repair at Bremerton, in June, 1941, and again, on completion of the work, in February, 1942.

At this time, she was painted in an unofficial two-tone scheme of light and medium grey, these being 507B and 507C. This colour scheme is believed to have been worn from 1941, with only slight variations, until the ship was scrapped after the war. As for the colour of her teak covered decks, in the photo of her tied up, alongside a jetty at Bremerton, near the end of her repairs, the teak decks appear to be dark, but this could easily be due to wet decks from the fairly constant winter rain.

If i get more info about I will send you (she was repainted then, and her refits long as february 1942 -probably 10 system damage at dec 7th is few, I´m not sure).

ALSO


I get another source about the refiting time:

On 22 May 1941, WARSPITE received a heavy bomb hit during operations off Crete. She was sent to the United States (via the Suez Canal, Singapore and Pearl Harbor) for repairs, and was repaired at Bremerton. Eleven 20mm Oerlikon AA guns were added in single mounts, and WARSPITE was fitted with radar. Those repairs were completed in February, 1942, and WARSPITE was assigned to the Eastern Fleet.

Ref: http://www.tomstockton.us/ships/ships_- ... b_1915.htm


[From Ramon in Spain]