allies in north africa

[dave74]

Hello all,

Long time lurker and buyer of matrix games here.

Enjoying this game but n my first campaign, (39 on normal difficulty, with oil and fow on) i have easily destroyed the british landforces in africa with my italians. My question is - do the british send new units to this theatre? if not it is going to be a walkover for the axis!!

thanks

dave

[JudgeDredd]

I'm in 1942 and have not seen new units into Africa as yet.

They may come, they just haven't yet. I've left it very lightly guarded as I try and stop the Russians!

[freeboy]

It seems the ia does some randome decisions.. some games it goes one way the next another.. interesting..
what we have not seen yet.. invasions

[Forwarn45]

From another thread (cut and paste from someone involved in testing the game) =

"The last one I tried before the game came out was 1944 as the Axis - defeated 2 attempted D-Day's & a Brit landing in Denmark, recaptured half of the Ukraine & was surrounding the Russian armies up around Poland/East Prussia by swining north.

Sadly the only way it is tough is if you make the AI units harder to kill with bonuses."


So the AI should eventually try invasions, I'm guessing.

[ijontichy]

Yes it does amphibious invasions, but I have only seen such on the French coast.

[IrishGuards]

Who are Allies actually ...[&:]
Sweden .. I Ore ..
Trade Agreements til War .. Or
Influenced Minor's ..
Total War ....
IDG

[firepowerjohan]

ORIGINAL: Forwarn45

From another thread (cut and paste from someone involved in testing the game) =

"The last one I tried before the game came out was 1944 as the Axis - defeated 2 attempted D-Day's & a Brit landing in Denmark, recaptured half of the Ukraine & was surrounding the Russian armies up around Poland/East Prussia by swining north.

Sadly the only way it is tough is if you make the AI units harder to kill with bonuses."


So the AI should eventually try invasions, I'm guessing.

It is missleading for CEaW and sad that someone writes how they managed to trick the AI in one of the pre-game BETAS though. In the last few days before the release we tweaked some scenarios including the 1944 one and it should be virtually impossible to prevent D-Day now. In fact, in 1944 scenario the Allies now move first instead of Axis which further proofs this point.

In fact, the agreement signed by the testers forbids them from exposing facts about the game that they know solely from their privileague of testing it. Since game is released, it is ok to talk about general things in game and things that can be known by just playing the final version. It is NOT ok to talk about things that suggest the game is broken when only reference is a BETA version! [:-]

I know ppl can make mistakes and I just hope I wont have to see this kind of stuff in the future...

[SMK-at-work]

I wrote that - and it was in the final beta version - I dont' see anything about "tricking" the AI - I played a straightforwrd game hammering the Allies in France and attacking hte Sov's in the south - nothign particularly tricky about it at all.

Here's an analysis of the substantive game from someone who I have no connection with at all other than we read & post on aonother forum - I've never played him at anything yet - there's not a lot of difference between his and mine..

Well I've played a full game as Allies vs the "A.I.".
If you even dare to call it an A.I.
I beat the Germans back with the Frenchies and at the end of 1940 I'm invading the Ruhr area.
After that a bunch of minors join Germany and when in oktober 1941 the Sovjets join it's over.
But I could prolly win it win France alone at the easiest level :/
I was going around them in a huge circle with loads of corps units.

- I beat up Africa without getting any response at all.
- I evac all French troops from africa without an attempt at a takeover. The Italians just sit there.
- Invasion of Sicily only one garison unit and no response.
- German navy can be blocked at the canal with only 1 ship!
- In the North about 5 ships will make sure that all your convoys will arrive,
just make a chain and you will detect them all.
- Subs are way too weak.
- Also noticed a bunch of bugs with the terrain indications.

Can only conclude that it's a pretty shallow game without:

- diplomacy
- hardly any meaningful decisions in research.
You just dump as many as possible in research, plenty of cash to go around.
- No weather effects except for an annual winter event in the east.

What is sad is when developers use weak excuses like "it was only the beta" against criticisms that remain valid in teh final game.....only a week or 2 after that last beta was released, and indicate that they made changes for hte final version that were not tested!!

[firepowerjohan]

That guy nOknOk was playing the 1939 full campaign, but what I was referring to was the 1944 D-Day scenario.

I seen some of the things nOknOk and some (not all) other guys at "that other forum" writes about CEaW and it is clear biased hate some of them expresses.[/size][/size]

Interesting to read
But I could prolly win it win France alone at the easiest level :/

I would assume anyone would play the game at least on normal difficulty and as I said before, the Axis starts at its weakest state in 1939 being outnumbered so just giving it the "Axis Minor Advantage" setting would give them some extra units that prevents these "rush strategies". There is no accident that this nOknOk guy picked 1939 Axis AI at some low difficulty level and used a rush strategy just to "proof" the AI "sucks".

The truth is, we made Poland abit tougher than in real WW2 because making Poland, Holland and Belgium "one turn conquest always" removes some interesting strategies from the game and besides saying those are always supposed to be very easy to conquer is also saying that Germany should always lose in the USSR or that Axis must always let the Allies escape from France at Dunkirk. We need to round off such things to make the game more open.

That said, with stronger Poland naturally there could be ways to exploit it against an AI player by invading first turn into western Germany. There are handicap levels for this which give AI more starting units, but in hindsight maybe we should have just let the AI get an advantage on normal difficulty also. It just seems like inflation to me, giving advantages on the "normal" difficulty. Like having a large cola meaning medium and a super size cola meaning large if you get my point.

As I said, the scenarios were tweaked from final Beta to release so that is why I think it is missleading saying the 1944 scenario was easy to beat in beta (since ppl might assume the beta is same as final version). If you play the final version and give the same review, there can be no objection and no missunderstanding. I do not agree that "It was only in the beta" is a lame excuse. Should we review games based on their Beta bugs and diseases? I do not see the point in that. 
 

[JudgeDredd]

SMK

Whilst I understand your reasoning for posting what you have in these forums, I was a beta tester as well and I don't know what NDA agreement you signed, but I read mine and it specifically said discussion of the game after release was to be in the vein of general comments etc, etc. It most definitely did not include "game assassination".

I do think your comments are crossing that boundary. Your general comments on here seem to be a little derogatory towards the game. As a beta tester, I don't see it's your job to save everyone money!

I'm not sticking my neck out here because I love the game or the developer or the publisher...I am speaking here from a BETA tester pov and as such, if this kind of activity is allowed to go on, then it endangers the possibility of beta testers in the future for gaming and the benefits that come with that.

In particular, this

I play-tested it for a few months, got the Tester's cheap version, and have gone back to SC2.

...

But overall it's failed to live up to what it could have been with all that.

It's a resource hog - ... the manner in which research has been implemented is clumsy and anachronistic.  Partisans in Holland in 1940, but none in Yugoslavia in 1943?? 

Supply in SC2 is more explicit but very similar to CEAW in effect IMO, apart from the effect of leaders.

Leaders in SC2 are quite different - they are more representative of major "rear echelon" effect - ie they are a supply source as well a a source of combat bonuses, and they can be KO'ed - SC@ is better in this respect IMO because of the supply-chain efect you can get from leaders.

The whole look and feel are sub-standard IMO.

It's an OK game - worth a B, could do better.

I have edited your post...not for effect, just leaving in the negative comments which I think highlights my point. The full post can be read here...
tm.asp?m=1481804&mpage=1&key=

Sorry...but I think as a BETA tester you "surrender" your right to freely talk about the negative aspects of the game in such a way. That post above was the first post I read from you about this game, and I was pretty shocked to see a BETA tester posting comments like the above, so I reported the post.

I have nothing personal against you. Indeed I don't know you from Adam, but I don't think BETA testers have the same freedom of speech as people who buy and play the game.

On the other hand, this post is informative

However to get back to the topic - if you haven't had supply problems in SC2 then you haven't been paying attention to the game mechanics.  supply in CEAW and SC@ rate about even for utility IMO - SC@ is a bit simpler while still being suitably subtle.  CEAW gets it all back in the presentation of troop and supply state on the unit icons (ie strength number colours and het supply dot) which makes it easier to see what's what.

found here tm.asp?m=1486705&mpage=1&key=&#1488207

And again, this post, not so informative and bordering on breaking most half decent NDA agreements

No.

that AI was never challenging in any of hte Beta's.  The last one I tried before the game came out was 1944 as the Axis - defeated 2 attempted D-Day's & a Brit landing in Denmark, recaptured half of the Ukraine & was surrounding the Russian armies up around Poland/East Prussia by swining north.

Sadly the only way it is tough is if you make the AI units harder to kill with bonuses.

found here tm.asp?m=1488253&mpage=1&key=&#1488271

As I said, I'm posting from a BETA testers pov.

[firepowerjohan]

I do not mind beta testers writing positive or negative about the game, but as long as it is about the FINAL version not about the betas. If i write 100 beta bugs up on a list (and do not tell ppl that those were bug fixes), ppl will assume some of them are there on the final release. It is only the beta testers that can supply such infomation and it can only be negative since a Beta is always worse than the final version.
 
That is all I wanted to say

[n0kn0k]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

That guy nOknOk was playing the 1939 full campaign, but what I was referring to was the 1944 D-Day scenario.

I seen some of the things nOknOk and some (not all) other guys at "that other forum" writes about CEaW and it is clear biased hate some of them expresses.[/size][/size]

Interesting to read
But I could prolly win it win France alone at the easiest level :/

I would assume anyone would play the game at least on normal difficulty and as I said before, the Axis starts at its weakest state in 1939 being outnumbered so just giving it the "Axis Minor Advantage" setting would give them some extra units that prevents these "rush strategies". There is no accident that this nOknOk guy picked 1939 Axis AI at some low difficulty level and used a rush strategy just to "proof" the AI "sucks".

Always fun to be quoted, and called biased and hateful when clearly stating some essential flaws in the design.
Note that I've been a beta tester for about a decade and I'm a designer myself.
I've been playing as Axis today. And I can say that I still stand by my previous posts.

Setting the handicap higher, adding extra units and changing costs doesn't improve the A.I.
What I saw was A.I. behavior, or the lack there off on numerous occasions.

- It should not be possible to leave whole area's undefended without an A.I. response
- When the A.I. is facing overwhelming force it should act by retreating or getting reinforcements
- When a Sealion is imminent the A.I. might want to come out of port with it's navy
- When Subs in the Atlantic are badly damaged the A.I. should chase them down, not go back to port.
- Empty cities are ignored when the A.I is sitting on fortifications
- Invading Africa or Italy doesn't get any response, no units reacting to an invasion. They just sit on their garrison spots, no attempt at preventing a breakthrough.
- Declaring war on half of Europe, or taking over doesn't make the USA or USSR the slightest bit nervous.
- Running into Germany with a dozen units doesn't make Hitler nervous. His troops stay at the Maginot line.

These are all things that can easily be fixed with some basic A.I. scripting.

Besides that there are some other bugs.

- Scrolling is very buggy in windowed mode
- Black screen on startup every now and then
- Windowed / Fullscreen setting is not saved

Some other things I noticed.

- 1024x768 resolution only. Are there screens made anymore with that resolution? 2560x1600 here
- Windowed mode is stuck in the upper left corner of the screen
- No land ownership cleanup algorithm
- After movement + rightclick your chance to attack is lost. This is very annoying, and also still the same in SC2.
- Units start without experience in 1944. You might think they would have gained some by then
- Impossible to view Commander stats after being assigned to a unit

Anyway, I'm off. Good luck with the game, and I'm looking forward to some improvements.

[IrishGuards]

Hey I had a Beta before I had VHS ... does that mean I can play too ...
IDG

[JudgeDredd]

to be fair to noknok, these experiences he lists...

- It should not be possible to leave whole area's undefended without an A.I. response
- When the A.I. is facing overwhelming force it should act by retreating or getting reinforcements
- When a Sealion is imminent the A.I. might want to come out of port with it's navy
- When Subs in the Atlantic are badly damaged the A.I. should chase them down, not go back to port.
- Empty cities are ignored when the A.I is sitting on fortifications
- Invading Africa or Italy doesn't get any response, no units reacting to an invasion. They just sit on their garrison spots, no attempt at preventing a breakthrough.
- Declaring war on half of Europe, or taking over doesn't make the USA or USSR the slightest bit nervous.
- Running into Germany with a dozen units doesn't make Hitler nervous. His troops stay at the Maginot line.

These are all things that can easily be fixed with some basic A.I. scripting.

Besides that there are some other bugs.

- Scrolling is very buggy in windowed mode
- Black screen on startup every now and then
- Windowed / Fullscreen setting is not saved

Some other things I noticed.

- 1024x768 resolution only. Are there screens made anymore with that resolution? 2560x1600 here
- Windowed mode is stuck in the upper left corner of the screen
- No land ownership cleanup algorithm
- After movement + rightclick your chance to attack is lost. This is very annoying, and also still the same in SC2.
- Units start without experience in 1944. You might think they would have gained some by then
- Impossible to view Commander stats after being assigned to a unit

I have noticed all the bold ones in the game.

In fairness to the developer though, they still don't make the game unenjoyable. The game is still a blast even with these issues. I think that probably speaks volumes for the game.

[ijontichy]

After playing a couple of dozen more hours (heheh), I agree with n0kn0k on just about all points. Undeniably, the eastern front war is a blast, and the AI is slightly less stupid there. But overall, I'm disappointed in the AI, despite my low expectations. I know it's a hard problem, designing AI, especially for a grand strategic game. One can sympathise to an extent with the developers. Ah! AI. The bane of computer games. I think I might go back to trying to learn the CotA game.

[Dave Ferguson]

Why not play against a human opponent, AI's are....just AI's, artificial, not the real thing!
 
Dave

[ijontichy]

Yes, that's the problem, there's almost no intelligence in AI. Artificial Incompetence. [;)] I have implemented a few pathfinding algorithms (on both square and hexagonal grids), and that was hard enough ... and yet, that's probably the easiest part of AI. It's a frustrating subject with very little progress over the past few decades. Like I said, I sympathise with the developers. I bought this game mainly because I want to support them in their future efforts to create a better AI for the next version of the game. The subject matter is great, and some of the design decisions are very well done (and some quite poor). There is room for improvement, and I wish them good luck.

(The reason I don't play against a human opponent ... well, I have to keep those reasons personal, but it is a good suggestion, much appreciated.)

[IainMcNeil]

We will be looking at improving the AI in any areas it is deficient. I think Johans point was that some people come to the game looking for excuses to compain rather than actually enjoying it for what it is. I'm sure we could find as many issues in other games. For example why design a user inteface where the exit button is hidden in a toggle menu I wont go on as I like the game in question and see no reason for all this "my game is better than your game" childishness. There are not enough of these sort of games and I've played them and enjoyed them all to different degrees. Why can't we all just be friends

[JudgeDredd]

Well, I am your friend Iain. You and your bods have helped me whittle away many hours this week, enjoying the game as is.

I just wanted to point out that the AI is a bit "still"...but as I said in a previous post, if it was too aggressive, I'd probably be pissed off because I do not have enough resources to defend all my borders.

Something I think might be a suggestion, for a patch or the future, is landings at specific locations. I don't like the idea that my entire border is open from North to west France, down both coasts of Italy and back up.....

[Rob Gjessing]

AI is always an issue.. its bloody hard getting an AI to play as well as a human player can.. infact its impossible.. gaming companies and programers have struggled with this for years.  An AI programmer from another established company which I know told me a story where he felt he was in a no win situation - as when he did write a good AI everyone accused him of allowing the computer AI to cheat. He felt he couldnt win, he was damned if he did and damned if he didnt (write a worthy AI).