India

[trees]

Goa is a port; if you don't want the Japanese to enter there, don't put the territory on the map at all. They could land units with or without a port after all. Damian and Pondicherry are much smaller places and probably don't rate a minor port. The ability of Japan to align Portugal after a fairly gamey CW DoW on Portugal and the susbsequent Japanese access to the Portuguese empire is a break on a very gamey Allied manuever (England and Portugal had one of the oldest treaties (400 years I think?) in the world during WWII). If the CW is concerned about access through Goa they can detail part of the Indian garrison to overrun it any time they want. Given equal skill the Allies have the upper hand in current WiF I feel, so why not make India a little more accessible? It is so big now it is rather unlikely the Japanese will ever be able to conquer it. I think the map should reflect reality as much as possible and balance should flow from the rules of the game. I can't recall any of my other wargames having the map edited to address play balance, but perhaps that is one way to work on it.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: trees

Goa is a port; if you don't want the Japanese to enter there, don't put the territory on the map at all. They could land units with or without a port after all.

Yes, but without a port, this is much less attractive. With a port, and a railway nearby, there is no need for an HQ on the coast. Without a port, there is a need to leave a HQ on the shore until a port if conquered, so without a port having Goa is not a problem.
Moreover, this is an extra port on the map, and even if Goa was a real port, we're talking about ports with military facilities able to accomodate a small fleet, and unlimited flows of supply. There are tens of area in the world that would warrant to be port, but who are not because the designer prefered to let them out, either because he judged that they did not have the military capacity, or for play balance reasons linked to historicals facts.

Damian and Pondicherry are much smaller places and probably don't rate a minor port. The ability of Japan to align Portugal after a fairly gamey CW DoW on Portugal

I'm not talking about a Japanese Alignement of Portugal, a German alignement is enough. If Germany or Italy alignes Portugal on a CW DoW on it, the aligned countries of Portugal stay axis controlled thereafter, and Japanese units can freely enter those territories or countries controlled by Germany or Italy. Japan could even base units there as soon as it gets Axis controlled, hald a dozen turns before it actually enters the war against the CW, and then would have unparalleled opportunities to attack India.

and the susbsequent Japanese access to the Portuguese empire is a break on a very gamey Allied manuever (England and Portugal had one of the oldest treaties (400 years I think?) in the world during WWII). If the CW is concerned about access through Goa they can detail part of the Indian garrison to overrun it any time they want.

That's true.

Given equal skill the Allies have the upper hand in current WiF I feel, so why not make India a little more accessible? It is so big now it is rather unlikely the Japanese will ever be able to conquer it. I think the map should reflect reality as much as possible and balance should flow from the rules of the game.

Nothing indicate that the reality is that Goa would have been such an open entry door to India during WW2.

I can't recall any of my other wargames having the map edited to address play balance, but perhaps that is one way to work on it.

[Incy]

If there was a port there, there ahould also have been a massive USE cost, at the very least. I don't think CW would in any way have allowed/accepted japanese troops and ships in mainland India.

The same actually goes for many other places in the mid east/africa. Personally I'd be happy to see more USE rules and more strait rules in MWiF, but it will not happen, it is more important to complete the game. But a computerised version certainly lends itself to expanding on such rules, and maybe in some future mod/addition it could happen [8|]. Most critical would be to add USE effects for japan operating significantly out of "theathre of interest", i.e. west of Singapore and/or add strait rules for such places as Hormuz, Malacca/Sunda, Bab al-Mandab (red sea/indian sea divide) and some other places.

I would also like to sea straits implemented differently, with straits having various strenghts and requiring naval and air units present to have effect. Without force H there, strait of Gibraltar would have been a cakewalk!!.

As for USE effects, there could be more either way, some examples:
"CW blockades italian east africa"
"CW blocades persian gulf"
"Japan extends sphere of influence to indian ocean"
"CW closes indian ocean to merchant shipping"
"CW grants naval basing rights for USSR"

[trees]

I think Incy is really on to something there.

It just seems silly to me to not make Goa a port when Midway Attoll rates minor port status.

Goa would go neutral if either side conquered Portugal, just like Greenland does.

But I think the CW should be forced to deal with it with their counters, not just given increased security for free. They could and would easily overrun it if they had to. The new map gives out plenty of new supply bases to the Russians and Chinese yet when a potential Japanese base appears the solution is to make them use an HQ.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: trees
But I think the CW should be forced to deal with it with their counters, not just given increased security for free. They could and would easily overrun it if they had to. The new map gives out plenty of new supply bases to the Russians and Chinese yet when a potential Japanese base appears the solution is to make them use an HQ.

I disagree.
The map does not give the Russian & the Chinese "plenty of new supply bases", the new map give to the Russian and the Chinese the supply status they already have in WiF FE. Nothing more. As a side note, 4-5 minor ports were added in China to maintain this supply status for the Japanese too (Pakhoi comes to my mind, plus 3 treaty ports near Fuchow).

The map should not give the Japanese extra easy entry points in India. Goa is simply that. If Goa is neutral, it's too easy to DoW Goa at no US entry cost, and take advantave of the surprise then achieved to enter India with an auto combat, and no penalty due to invading a CW Home Country.

And as I already said, nothing shows in WWII that Goa was a significant military port.

Midway had a huge battle fought for it, and hence can justify for having a military port, in game terms. There's nothing in what I know of WWII that hints that the Japanese would have had an easy springboard in India through Goa.

[Jimm]

On this subject, there was an old 80s film called "Seawolves", based on a true story.

A German vessel interned at Goa was supposedly transmitting details of British shipping to U-boats. The British knew but couldnt intervene openly without creating a diplomatic incident, so conducted a clandestine boarding operation to neutralize the transmissions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Calcutta_Light_Horse

[trees]

we're only talking about theoretical games. Goa had no bearing on the real WWII whatsoever. the Japanese never had plans to operate on the west coast of India. Dreams maybe, but not plans. The Japanese did occupy East Timor with nary a ripple of notice in the war I believe. If they were to attack a neutral Goa it would be a USE roll ??? (I think that is how it would work for neutral 'territories'). The CW wouldn't tolerate Japanese troops in Goa, they might possibly declare war on Japan for that. But that would be a major decision the player can make. If they didn't want to open the door to India, perhaps they shouldn't occupy the Portugese Home Country as they do in many games. And if the Japanese wanted to open the door via their own DoW on Portugal, as the CW I'd be glad to let them get sucked in to a campaign difficult to support, far from Japan, with the bonus for the Allies of new Portugese bases around the world.

Midway was fought over, this is true. But look at a picture of it and of Goa and tell me which one is more deserving of being a minor port. I don't think the geogpraphy of the map should be forced to fit ideas of how to play the game. The map should reflect geographic reality.

[Jimm]

ORIGINAL: trees

Midway was fought over, this is true. But look at a picture of it and of Goa and tell me which one is more deserving of being a minor port. I don't think the geogpraphy of the map should be forced to fit ideas of how to play the game. The map should reflect geographic reality.

I was checking out Google Earth for a general comparison- comparing its apparent facilities to other "minor ports" in India, it would appear to have a reasonable claim in comparison to Callicut and Mangalore, and Madras doesnt appear to be much bigger. granted I guess that its not really a scientific comparison 50 years after the fact but it is an interesting comparison nonetheless. I wonder whether there was a specific method behind the definition of Major/Minor ports in the original game or if it was relatively arbitrary?

On the Goa think I reckon that it wouldnt massively affect balance. If the CW decides to occupy Portugal it would obviously have to consider seizing Goa as well on the chance that a hostile colony on the Indian mainland would present an opportunity for the enemy. This seems reasonably realistic to me even given WifFE's pretty clunky diplomacy/neutral alignment rules (DOD is somewhat better on this type of thing).

Besides in my experience I didnt find it that hard getting ashore in India as the Japs - it was getting any further inland that I found hard!

[iamspamus]

ORIGINAL: trees

we're only talking about theoretical games. Goa had no bearing on the real WWII whatsoever. the Japanese never had plans to operate on the west coast of India. Dreams maybe, but not plans. The Japanese did occupy East Timor with nary a ripple of notice in the war I believe. If they were to attack a neutral Goa it would be a USE roll ??? (I think that is how it would work for neutral 'territories'). The CW wouldn't tolerate Japanese troops in Goa, they might possibly declare war on Japan for that. But that would be a major decision the player can make. If they didn't want to open the door to India, perhaps they shouldn't occupy the Portugese Home Country as they do in many games. And if the Japanese wanted to open the door via their own DoW on Portugal, as the CW I'd be glad to let them get sucked in to a campaign difficult to support, far from Japan, with the bonus for the Allies of new Portugese bases around the world.

Midway was fought over, this is true. But look at a picture of it and of Goa and tell me which one is more deserving of being a minor port. I don't think the geogpraphy of the map should be forced to fit ideas of how to play the game. The map should reflect geographic reality.

I concur completely and still think that Goa should be represented by a port in MWIF.
Jason

[Arron69]

ORIGINAL: trees

we're only talking about theoretical games. Goa had no bearing on the real WWII whatsoever. the Japanese never had plans to operate on the west coast of India. Dreams maybe, but not plans. The Japanese did occupy East Timor with nary a ripple of notice in the war I believe. If they were to attack a neutral Goa it would be a USE roll ??? (I think that is how it would work for neutral 'territories'). The CW wouldn't tolerate Japanese troops in Goa, they might possibly declare war on Japan for that. But that would be a major decision the player can make. If they didn't want to open the door to India, perhaps they shouldn't occupy the Portugese Home Country as they do in many games. And if the Japanese wanted to open the door via their own DoW on Portugal, as the CW I'd be glad to let them get sucked in to a campaign difficult to support, far from Japan, with the bonus for the Allies of new Portugese bases around the world.

Midway was fought over, this is true. But look at a picture of it and of Goa and tell me which one is more deserving of being a minor port. I don't think the geogpraphy of the map should be forced to fit ideas of how to play the game. The map should reflect geographic reality.

I totally agree on this point, if the port was there IRL, it should be there in the game. It would be like leaving out the Manning brothers in Madden 2008 becourse they disrubted the game balance, WHAT????

Andi

[trees]

I did have the rule wrong though, Portugal has several aligned minor countries with capitals, so it would be incompletely conquered upon the fall of Lisbon, and Goa would continue to be accessible to whomever aligned Portugal to start with.

[Froonp]

The graphic artist re-drew details of the Calcuta - Chittagong coast. There were place where the coasts seemed to extend in adjacent hexes. This is no more.

[Froonp]

He also re-drew the all sea hexside east of Rangoon.
Comments ?

[composer99]

Other than "it looks nice", no, not really.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99
Other than "it looks nice", no, not really.

It's already good to read ! [:D]

[Skanvak]

I think as the other poster that the Portuguese and French area should be minor port. Other wise it is stupid. Do you see that french will need an amphibious to bring unit to one of its colony on a continental land???
This addition are needed to make the map credible. I think that India is quite develop at the time and should have more minor port anyway (especially if you compart those port that that support trade and fishing big population to the pacific minor port that are just here to welcome a ship or two).

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The graphic artist re-drew details of the Calcuta - Chittagong coast. There were place where the coasts seemed to extend in adjacent hexes. This is no more.

I question why the sea is taken past the hex "point" on those clear inland hexes? (I don't know if this is the change, since it looks similar on the MWIF map I have.) But remember the clarification that sea touching only the point of a hexagon does not make the hex coastal (like Hamburg)?

It strikes me that the Japanese will have a much easier time supplying invading forces in the area to drive west toward Calcutta then if those inland clear hexes were not coastal.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
I question why the sea is taken past the hex "point" on those clear inland hexes? (I don't know if this is the change, since it looks similar on the MWIF map I have.) But remember the clarification that sea touching only the point of a hexagon does not make the hex coastal (like Hamburg)?

It strikes me that the Japanese will have a much easier time supplying invading forces in the area to drive west toward Calcutta then if those inland clear hexes were not coastal.

Thiis not the change. This was inherited from CWiF, where the **all** vertex hexes (the middle hex) (including Hamburg and the one SE of bordeaux were considered coastal hexes.
The CWiF map was made by ADG at the time, so the coastlines were drew with that information in mind.
Needless to say, easier or not for Japan to put troops in supply, the coastlines won't be changed anymore now. This is too much un-needed work for Steve

This said, as you can see below, the area is very water friendly, so this is not a problem.

[composer99]

Considering Calcutta is still in swamp, with a factory stack, and four rivers, it'll still be a tough nut to crack (unless the dice come up 16 or so, of course).