Japanese Source Material Translation

[JWE]

For people having trouble with original Japanese language sources, relief is at hand. Translation isn’t hard, and it’s not (very) expensive.

Japanese language documents competently translated; all classifications of technical subject matter, from clothespins to Boro-compound reactor fuel physics. I usually pay about $100 per page for technical English translations of very dense, double column, Japanese patent and application documents; get a three day turn on 20 – 30 page docs. This is a “patent office”, but the translators are able to operate independently, and take on independent projects. There are many other “patent offices” with the same capability, some larger, some smaller; sample contact info follows:

Fukami Patent Office
Nakanoshima Central Tower
2-7 Nakanoshima, 2-Chome
Kita-Ku, Osaka, 530-0005, Japan
81-6-4707-2021 (telephone)
81-6-4707-1731 (facsimile)

Russians have the same deal, both in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

[el cid again]

The problem is, this isn't germane to our materials. It is about modern Japanese in commercial and technical usage. They won't be able to understand terms of art - military, naval or esoteric technical - of the WWII era - and they probably won't take your money pretending they do. They almost certainly will be using software - and then reviewing its output. This is very fine work - and it is important it be done well. But reviewing patant matters is not anything like reviewing historical documents - and I regret to say I am not guessing. I can refer you to commercial software that isn't cheap, and to professional translation companies that are not cheap - but the "cheap" solution is to learn to do it yourself. Even with a foundation (I learned to read what the Japanese call Kanji long before I studied Japanese - because I was in Viet Nam and we were worried about China) it isn't terribly easy or fast to learn enough to do this well. The only good news is that East Asian languages are structurally easier than Indo European languages - that their basic word order (subject - verb) is one you are familar with - and that many things that make Western languages hard are not present. [It is easier to say time when it matters and not when it does not matter than to have to put tenses on things all the time] In the end, you may reach the point where you prefer to do a literal translation, a computer translation, and then consult with native speakers/readers for nuances - for anything important. It works - the only problem being you don't have centuries to evaluate thousands of pages. What you cannot do is get this stuff quick, easy and cheap. Language scholars crossing barriers of time generations long - and crossing into no longer used specialist fields of jargon - should be greatly respected for what they do. [It is mainly done by scholars and "specialists" - the politest term used for non-academic researchers] No modern company does that - nor has any program been written to do that (yet). But we are getting there: you can get free translations of many things on the web - and one day specialist programs that figure out jargons probably will be possible - and sold.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The problem is, this isn't germane to our materials. It is about modern Japanese in commercial and technical usage. They won't be able to understand terms of art - military, naval or esoteric technical - of the WWII era - and they probably won't take your money pretending they do. They almost certainly will be using software - and then reviewing its output. This is very fine work - and it is important it be done well. But reviewing patant matters is not anything like reviewing historical documents - and I regret to say I am not guessing. I can refer you to commercial software that isn't cheap, and to professional translation companies that are not cheap - but the "cheap" solution is to learn to do it yourself. Even with a foundation (I learned to read what the Japanese call Kanji long before I studied Japanese - because I was in Viet Nam and we were worried about China) it isn't terribly easy or fast to learn enough to do this well. The only good news is that East Asian languages are structurally easier than Indo European languages - that their basic word order (subject - verb) is one you are familar with - and that many things that make Western languages hard are not present. [It is easier to say time when it matters and not when it does not matter than to have to put tenses on things all the time] In the end, you may reach the point where you prefer to do a literal translation, a computer translation, and then consult with native speakers/readers for nuances - for anything important. It works - the only problem being you don't have centuries to evaluate thousands of pages. What you cannot do is get this stuff quick, easy and cheap. Language scholars crossing barriers of time generations long - and crossing into no longer used specialist fields of jargon - should be greatly respected for what they do. [It is mainly done by scholars and "specialists" - the politest term used for non-academic researchers] No modern company does that - nor has any program been written to do that (yet). But we are getting there: you can get free translations of many things on the web - and one day specialist programs that figure out jargons probably will be possible - and sold.

Actually they do all kinds of stuff; they understand the terms of art. They have done stuff for me before. Historical documents are their stock in trade. They don’t use software. Hiroda Nato is known for his facility in 12th and 13th century Mongolian. Sorry, but I’m afraid you don’t know what you’re talking about here.

Oh, BTW, they speak English. Why not just ask them. I gave you the phone and fax numbers.

<edit> Never mind, I have a response due by Sept. 6, so I will be chattin with the Fukami folks in a couple days, anyway. I'll pass on your comments and be sure to post their reply; they send confirmations by pdf.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The problem is, this isn't germane to our materials. It is about modern Japanese in commercial and technical usage. They won't be able to understand terms of art - military, naval or esoteric technical - of the WWII era - and they probably won't take your money pretending they do. They almost certainly will be using software - and then reviewing its output. This is very fine work - and it is important it be done well. But reviewing patant matters is not anything like reviewing historical documents - and I regret to say I am not guessing. I can refer you to commercial software that isn't cheap, and to professional translation companies that are not cheap - but the "cheap" solution is to learn to do it yourself. Even with a foundation (I learned to read what the Japanese call Kanji long before I studied Japanese - because I was in Viet Nam and we were worried about China) it isn't terribly easy or fast to learn enough to do this well. The only good news is that East Asian languages are structurally easier than Indo European languages - that their basic word order (subject - verb) is one you are familar with - and that many things that make Western languages hard are not present. [It is easier to say time when it matters and not when it does not matter than to have to put tenses on things all the time] In the end, you may reach the point where you prefer to do a literal translation, a computer translation, and then consult with native speakers/readers for nuances - for anything important. It works - the only problem being you don't have centuries to evaluate thousands of pages. What you cannot do is get this stuff quick, easy and cheap. Language scholars crossing barriers of time generations long - and crossing into no longer used specialist fields of jargon - should be greatly respected for what they do. [It is mainly done by scholars and "specialists" - the politest term used for non-academic researchers] No modern company does that - nor has any program been written to do that (yet). But we are getting there: you can get free translations of many things on the web - and one day specialist programs that figure out jargons probably will be possible - and sold.

Actually they do all kinds of stuff; they understand the terms of art. They have done stuff for me before. Historical documents are their stock in trade. They don’t use software. Hiroda Nato is known for his facility in 12th and 13th century Mongolian. Sorry, but I’m afraid you don’t know what you’re talking about here.



Oh, BTW, they speak English. Why not just ask them. I gave you the phone and fax numbers.

<edit> Never mind, I have a response due by Sept. 6, so I will be chattin with the Fukami folks in a couple days, anyway. I'll pass on your comments and be sure to post their reply; they send confirmations by pdf.

I wish I did not know what I was talking about this time! But I have served on joint committees - and I assure you - a term used in the WWII era Japanese navy atomic power program will not be understood by anyone. There is no dictionary or lexicon to look up the usage in. We may reasonably guess a "special steam boiler" is an atomic reactor, but that isn't the modern Japanese term for one. We cannot honestly say we are translating when we are guessing. And neither can they. It is the same in radar and fire control and many other fields: with rare exceptions there is no one to ask and no place to look it up. Even when a whole table full of specialists and lilnguists agrees - it is still a guess - not a translation - because we have no way to verify the guess is right.

If this was really economic - the official history would be translated into English - since most scholars in the world don't read Japanese. That at least could be done - it is written in modern Japanese.

If it was really possible for a computer to do - the stuff the CIA uses would do it. It tries heroically - but you have a lot of work to do before you can say you understand even one sentence or phrase. And out of context, that might not be very safe to plant much on - even if you have it right. You need the context more in Japanese than in English - usually - in order to understand even what the subject of the sentence or phrase was related to. And if you are not familiar with practice in the institution that wrote the document - you might still make serious errors in interpretation. This isn't 13th century Japanese - it is an unused form of modern Japanese - and there is no one to tell us what is meant by this term or that one? I am one of the last to track down WWII era officers and scientists to ask - and more and more the reply is "he is dead" or "he no longer is able to think about such things - his mind is gone."

Then there is this: this "solution" isn't economic. At "only" $100 a page - never mind how long it would take - a chapter (such as I have on the I - 400 ) would cost $2000 to translate. There are thousands of pages to translate - and if we had a truly easy way to get it done - I know two authors with freight containers full of them (Robert K Wilcox and Charles S Stone) - wholly aside from the couple of thousand I myself have. IF we translated the lot - it would then take longer than we are likely to live to integrate all the information we would get with what we already have. But we are not going to be able to come up with the mere million or two it would cost to get it all translated. I have an entire book on Noguchi - never translated - and of course I want to be able to read the official history without bothering to translate it. I know archivists at Las Vegas and Washington who have lots more - they keep declassifying things. What we need is a computer program - I can scan it and convert it into a form a computer understands - or at least a comprehensive dictionary of all the lost terms of art. We have neither - yet. The hope we may get either is dim - but brighter than it used to be. The biggest problem is going to be that we are not preserving the materials: lack of funding is the official reason - sometimes used as an excuse not to do so when you figure out what you want to see that they would keep classified if they were allowed to do so by statute. Anyway- by the time we can translate this economically - if it ever happens - we may not have all we should have to translate - and that only for the minority of materials not destroyed during the war. This is a very difficult matter - and if you do find someone interested in helping academic researchers and authors in a truly affordable way - it would not be a bad thing. I would spread the word - and they would have plenty to do for years.

[m10bob]

I once dated a German language teacher with the mandatory degree to teach English in a German school in Berlin. To say she was prolific in the language would be an understatement, yet, she did not know technical "jargon", nor colloquial words/phrases I had learned "on the street".
She did not know (for instance) the German word for aluminum was aluminium.

As for time, even the German term for paratrooper had been changed.
IIRC the current term is Fallschirmjager, where it used to be Sprengfalljager (or something close)..It's been a while.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

She did not know (for instance) the German word for aluminum was aluminium.

Everyone else's word is aluminium too; it's another one of those things that only Americans do...[:'(][;)]

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: m10bob
As for time, even the German term for paratrooper had been changed.
IIRC the current term is Fallschirmjager, where it used to be Sprengfalljager (or something close)..It's been a while.

Fallschirmjäger are still Fallschirmjäger - I must know this

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I once dated a German language teacher with the mandatory degree to teach English in a German school in Berlin. To say she was prolific in the language would be an understatement, yet, she did not know technical "jargon", nor colloquial words/phrases I had learned "on the street".
She did not know (for instance) the German word for aluminum was aluminium.

As for time, even the German term for paratrooper had been changed.
IIRC the current term is Fallschirmjager, where it used to be Sprengfalljager (or something close)..It's been a while.

Ain't it the truth. Every field has their own jargon; it keeps the riff-raff out. There's dozens of 'offices' and most of their staff speaks English very well; UCLA and Berkeley seem to be popular. They are curteous and very helpful, and if they can't find one of their own associates knowledgable in the field, they are quite happy to provide recommendations.

I don't know why some people try so hard to discredit folks they never met, and whose capabilities they have no knowledge of. Very disturbing behavior. Anyway, if anyone out there has a translation issue, a simple (and relatively cheap) call to Osaka would probably fill the bill. Forget the nonsensical BS on the site, get your own solution.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Actually they do all kinds of stuff; they understand the terms of art. They have done stuff for me before. Historical documents are their stock in trade. They don’t use software. Hiroda Nato is known for his facility in 12th and 13th century Mongolian. Sorry, but I’m afraid you don’t know what you’re talking about here.

Oh, BTW, they speak English. Why not just ask them. I gave you the phone and fax numbers.

<edit> Never mind, I have a response due by Sept. 6, so I will be chattin with the Fukami folks in a couple days, anyway. I'll pass on your comments and be sure to post their reply; they send confirmations by pdf.

Got a response back. It is quite uncomplimentary to Cid, so I will not post it. I have it available for anyone wishing to avail themselves of Japanese translations. You know where to send your requests.

[JeffroK]

[8D]
&nbsp;
I had a problem trying to translate a Polish History, got the Gardener to translate it for me. Even the words he didnt understand he put the translation and it made sense when put in context.
&nbsp;
PS. This could explain the LMG totin' 18th japanese Infantry Division in Malaya!!

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

[8D]

I had a problem trying to translate a Polish History, got the Gardener to translate it for me. Even the words he didnt understand he put the translation and it made sense when put in context.

PS. This could explain the LMG totin' 18th japanese Infantry Division in Malaya!!

Yep, pretty much how it works. Translation ain't magic. There's more that 5,000 people now who can read Linear-B as though it was Harry Potter.

What LMG totin' 18th japanese Infantry Division in Malaya?? Don't understand??

[JeffroK]

According to Tsuji,In the Invasion of Malaya,&nbsp;every infantryman of the 18 ID carried an LMG in addition to his rifle.
&nbsp;
It looks so&nbsp;out of context in the book, and is not repeated, that it looks like a translation error.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

According to Tsuji,In the Invasion of Malaya, every infantryman of the 18 ID carried an LMG in addition to his rifle.

It looks so out of context in the book, and is not repeated, that it looks like a translation error.

Really? Wow! Yeah, that has to be some kind of error! That, or maybe Tsuji forgot to take his meds that day. [:D][:D]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

[8D]

I had a problem trying to translate a Polish History, got the Gardener to translate it for me. Even the words he didnt understand he put the translation and it made sense when put in context.

PS. This could explain the LMG totin' 18th japanese Infantry Division in Malaya!!

Nope. That one is explained by Tsuji. See Japan's Greatest Victory, Britain's Greatest Defeat. I have not done it right - there is no support for the extra MMG. But if put in a hex with extra support they stand up and participate. It is because they didn't add ammo squads - anything - just the guns - and the troops had bikes to carry two weapons and full kit - a rifle and MG - each!

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

According to Tsuji,In the Invasion of Malaya, every infantryman of the 18 ID carried an LMG in addition to his rifle.

It looks so out of context in the book, and is not repeated, that it looks like a translation error.

It is also in the Japanese - so it isn't a translation error. It makes tactical sense, and all modern SOF and SWAT units do this. You pick the weapon for the tactical situation - and you have them forward with you. But then it was ahead of its time - probably the first time in history - and certainly the only time a major formation did so.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: JWE

Actually they do all kinds of stuff; they understand the terms of art. They have done stuff for me before. Historical documents are their stock in trade. They don’t use software. Hiroda Nato is known for his facility in 12th and 13th century Mongolian. Sorry, but I’m afraid you don’t know what you’re talking about here.

Oh, BTW, they speak English. Why not just ask them. I gave you the phone and fax numbers.

<edit> Never mind, I have a response due by Sept. 6, so I will be chattin with the Fukami folks in a couple days, anyway. I'll pass on your comments and be sure to post their reply; they send confirmations by pdf.

Got a response back. It is quite uncomplimentary to Cid, so I will not post it. I have it available for anyone wishing to avail themselves of Japanese translations. You know where to send your requests.

How could that be, one wonders? I didn't say anything for them to evaluate - and I described the reality of translation. I have some association with a rare bilingual school, and I once tried to hire commercial translation services in New York City - by referral. I work with authors and academics - and it is not normal to be uncomplimentary of anyone trying to do this very difficult task. I have focused on getting material to translate and aids to translation (software, dictionaries, linguistic references of other sorts) rather than paying for translation services - because one can not get very much done using them unless one were very wealthy indeed. But the services available for Japanese-English are normally very high quality - and very respectful of anyone attempting any sort of work in the field.

I have plenty of material to translate. Without leaving the room I can produce a mailing large enough to require $400,000 - $500,000 at the fee rate cited above. I just don't see how it helps us to say that is a viable solution? IF you mean something I don't understand - I will send an emial to Bob Wilcox - and we can send you at least seven figure money worth of documents within a couple of days (again at $200 a page to translate).

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: JeffK

According to Tsuji,In the Invasion of Malaya, every infantryman of the 18 ID carried an LMG in addition to his rifle.

It looks so out of context in the book, and is not repeated, that it looks like a translation error.

It is also in the Japanese - so it isn't a translation error. It makes tactical sense, and all modern SOF and SWAT units do this. You pick the weapon for the tactical situation - and you have them forward with you. But then it was ahead of its time - probably the first time in history - and certainly the only time a major formation did so.

The why doesnt ANY other source comment on the immense firepower that 18ID could put out, plus make comment on the amazing logistics problem they faced? The japanese outmanouvred and outfougt the Empire troops, no where have I read it was also due to their amazing firepower.

You seem to accept that 1 source makes it fact, you completely fail as a supposed Historian to look further and either proove or disproove a piece of information. Even if Tsuji believes its correct, that doesnt mean it happened!

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: JeffK

According to Tsuji,In the Invasion of Malaya, every infantryman of the 18 ID carried an LMG in addition to his rifle.

It looks so out of context in the book, and is not repeated, that it looks like a translation error.

It is also in the Japanese - so it isn't a translation error. It makes tactical sense, and all modern SOF and SWAT units do this. You pick the weapon for the tactical situation - and you have them forward with you. But then it was ahead of its time - probably the first time in history - and certainly the only time a major formation did so.

The why doesnt ANY other source comment on the immense firepower that 18ID could put out, plus make comment on the amazing logistics problem they faced? The japanese outmanouvred and outfougt the Empire troops, no where have I read it was also due to their amazing firepower.

You seem to accept that 1 source makes it fact, you completely fail as a supposed Historian to look further and either proove or disproove a piece of information. Even if Tsuji believes its correct, that doesnt mean it happened!

I was trained never to disregard a primary source. I also was trained to actually read the material. In this case - the material - its translation - and my own comments on it - have never identified it as the 18th Infantry Division. The correct unit identification is the 5th. It is indeed an unusual unit - one of only two semi-motorized units faced in the SRA - and the only one of the Class A sort. The other semi-motorized division in the SRA was the 48th over in the Philippines.
This latter information is from a Japanese Forum member - or former forum member - who refuses play or discuss things on the Forum anymore for a number of reasons - including attitudes encountered here. I did not know there were any Class A divisions in the South at all - and more than one material in English says there were not. I probably spend more time running down things to source than any person you have ever met - but even fanatics like me have finite amounts of time - and there is the problem of where to go to run it down? - and the problem of what does it mean when you do run it down (if in primary language)? I don't know why you assume that I have something on just one source - or why if that is all we have - you think we should disregard it? Just because I give a good source to verify this or that does not mean there are not other sources. And if you are not going to believe those who actually planned the op - what amount of confirmation would be adequate for you in any case? When the chief of the special planning unit and later chief of operations for the campaign says this is the case - I say the burdon of proof is on you to show he does not know what he is talking about. It ought to be a sufficient indicator that it happened that way to mention in a cryptic medium like this one. It should be a much better indicator than citing a Western source (say The Hinge of Fate) - which cannot even get right the number of divisions assigned, never mind how they were equipped. I see why a Japanese participant in the Forum feels contested and unwelcome if this sort of material - which is far more likely to be right than not - is treated as somehow inadequate as a basis for a comment. I don't usually feel an obligation to cite in a scholarly sense - and it was Forum members who wanted some pointers where esoteric things came from. After decades of research, it is normal NOT TO KNOW where you saw this or that. To be able to remember a PRIMARY and credible source is quite good. We are not going to get a degree for this work, nor are we paid for it, and we have other priorities than running down and documenting every possible source. On that subject - I may hold the world's record as an exhaustive documenter - but each such effort takes me a year - or two years. We cannot get very much done if we lose focus and do that on every topic! It should be good enough to show the ideas are not dreamed up to cite a good source for them - and if you want more - you should go after it - or ask for help after you hit a dead end. It is rather insulting and hostile to assume that - when a source is given as a courtesy - "it probably isn't so - he is accepting only one guy after all - never mind the guy is the one who really would know - and since I never heard it it is more in my comfort zone to continue to disbelieve it." It may be we have lots of ways to know this or that fact. It may also be we do not have. In that case, we should believe what the participants say, not what someone who wasn't there never heard before. Never hearing is not evidence. Written testimony is evidence. Any evidence is better than no evidence. And SOMETHING happened in Malaya - something very wierd: IJA learned to disregard its own doctrine - because opposition was not strong enough to justify normal tactical methods. There was considerable local support - as Tsuji says - and you can find that in academic work on Malaya (there is one on the Japanese occupation policy - from beginning to end). The argument that the Japanese were not outnumbered at the scene is a misunderstanding of tactical reality: the normal case was for the point to engage and break the roadblock; the alternate case was for elements of the lead formation to flank the position. It was not normal to need to use the major unit as such, and resistence of a sort that would have forced that would have made a difference - because it would take time to go from strung out road formation to battle formation for an entire division. It wasn't that sort of campaign. But the record does appear to show the 5th was more effective than the Imperial Guards or the 18th. This may have more to do with its Class A organization and motorization (half its transport regiments were truck) than with the extra weapons - but they are probably a factor as well. No one is on trial here - and I see no need to treat every item we are told as if it needs to be contested in a legal proceeding? We should be able to make a comment without the need to show double or triple verification, cited in a scholarly sense. If that isn't the case - why is no one doing that?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: JeffK

[8D]

I had a problem trying to translate a Polish History, got the Gardener to translate it for me. Even the words he didnt understand he put the translation and it made sense when put in context.

PS. This could explain the LMG totin' 18th japanese Infantry Division in Malaya!!

Nope. That one is explained by Tsuji. See Japan's Greatest Victory, Britain's Greatest Defeat. I have not done it right - there is no support for the extra MMG. But if put in a hex with extra support they stand up and participate. It is because they didn't add ammo squads - anything - just the guns - and the troops had bikes to carry two weapons and full kit - a rifle and MG - each!

I once posted that in combat I mostly carried an M 16, M1911a1, and an M 79 "thump-gun", but on occasion ALSO carried an M 60, for mission requirement.
Other team members carried the cans.
Another forum member pointed out my unit was not your "average" unit, but my purpose in posting was to point out it could be done if "mission-specific."
Kinda like the "crickets" issued to the airborne on June 5th?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: JeffK

According to Tsuji,In the Invasion of Malaya, every infantryman of the 18 ID carried an LMG in addition to his rifle.

It looks so out of context in the book, and is not repeated, that it looks like a translation error.

It is also in the Japanese - so it isn't a translation error. It makes tactical sense, and all modern SOF and SWAT units do this. You pick the weapon for the tactical situation - and you have them forward with you. But then it was ahead of its time - probably the first time in history - and certainly the only time a major formation did so.

Yep, seems that brother Tsuji forgot to take his meds when he came up with that one.