Upgrading the AVG P-40Bs

[Buck Beach]

I am thinking of upgrading my AVGs to P-40Es. Should I? What will I be giving up in filling the squadrons with the better a/c?

[el cid again]

It is political: can you justify sending them to China? Also cosmetic - you lose the AVG P-40 art.

The special features of the AVG main group - the one with 48 planes- are hard code and not related to the plane - but the unit.
The second (RHS only) unit - the 3rd Squadron of the AVG Group - has no special features - again hard code.

A better plane = a better plane

[Buck Beach]

Thanks Sid.

[engineer]

I happen to be reading a bio of Chennault and it turns out that the AVG was absorbed into the USAAF at the end of June, 1942.  Very few of the AVG personnel transferred over to the US service in China (Chennault and Stillwell were always butting heads) but many re-enlisted in various services after going home from China.   

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: engineer

I happen to be reading a bio of Chennault and it turns out that the AVG was absorbed into the USAAF at the end of June, 1942.  Very few of the AVG personnel transferred over to the US service in China (Chennault and Stillwell were always butting heads) but many re-enlisted in various services after going home from China.   

That's true, maybe I should just let attrition wear them down. I still have the majority of them late March 1942 and they are giving a great accounting of themselves. Besides I can probably better use the P-40E in Australia.

[JeffroK]

engineer, the AVG became 23rd Fighter Group USAAF.
 
Because many of the pilots were Navy or Marine(a la Boyington) they did not all transfer, I dont know if the USAAF pilots had a choice.
 
IMHO, I would leave the AVG in P40B if they are fighting Oscar, and only change to the P40E if faced by Zeke.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

engineer, the AVG became 23rd Fighter Group USAAF.

Because many of the pilots were Navy or Marine(a la Boyington) they did not all transfer, I dont know if the USAAF pilots had a choice.

IMHO, I would leave the AVG in P40B if they are fighting Oscar, and only change to the P40E if faced by Zeke.

Not in part of Sid's world. They fight a hy-bred, but I am going to stick with the AVG P-40Bs (which are different that the P-40Bs at least Art wise.

[el cid again]

The problem with using Zeros (or even Oscars) in China is that you have so many other places you need them - and there is not much need for their legs in China. There are not many zeros to start with. IF the Chinese air force becomes a problem though - in one game I flew Zeros out of Formosa to mess them up. And it was the AVG that was beating up the NATES. In "Sid's world" there are ONLY Nates in China, and almost none of those. Which is fine - unless the ROCAF imports the AVG - in which case they are outnumbered and outflown.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The problem with using Zeros (or even Oscars) in China is that you have so many other places you need them - and there is not much need for their legs in China. There are not many zeros to start with. IF the Chinese air force becomes a problem though - in one game I flew Zeros out of Formosa to mess them up. And it was the AVG that was beating up the NATES. In "Sid's world" there are ONLY Nates in China, and almost none of those. Which is fine - unless the ROCAF imports the AVG - in which case they are outnumbered and outflown.

I haven't moved the AVG out of Rangoon yet and out of there they are fighting Claudes. Note that is the same plane I have encountered in Fiji and New Caledonia.

[el cid again]

There are modified Claudes in some EOS scenarios - they were the first to fly with the 20 mm gun - it replaces their .30s - and it does help vs bombers.

The Zero is just the Zero.

There are Claudes and Oscars - but they are just Claudes and Oscars.

The big early change is the Mike - that is its real code name - because it was seen flying in Japan. It is the Me-109. IRL it was the Me-109E - and only three were built - for test purposes - and while its engine was produced (and used on the Ki-61 and Judy) - and jigs were obtained -
it lost out to the Ki-44. In EOS it still loses out to the Ki-44 - but is adopted as an interim fighter - until the Ki-44 can complete development (a bird in the hand so to speak). Further - the variant of the E called the T (for Traeger or carrier) is produced - and used on CVLs and CVEs.

I think this is your plane: the Me-109 T (known as A9M1 in naval service where A = Fighter; 9 = design sequence number; M = Mitsubishi and 1 = engine sequence number). It has no leggs - but it is armed almost the same as a Zero - 2 cannon and 2 MMG - it is a good interceptor - and it is able to land on a ship. It has one advantage over all Japanese fighters in this period: it has armor - a lesson learned in ETO (Me-109 has been around since the Spanish Civil War). Not bad - until the Ki-44 arrives late in 1942 - and becomes the standard Japanese interceptor.

Ki-44s in HISTORICAL scenarios arrive as landplanes but upgrade to carrier planes - because the ARMY selected it as such.
In EOS there are NO Army carriers - so it upgrades only to a land fighter - and the Me-109 takes over the upgrade slot as a carrier fighter.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

There are modified Claudes in some EOS scenarios - they were the first to fly with the 20 mm gun - it replaces their .30s - and it does help vs bombers.

The Zero is just the Zero.

There are Claudes and Oscars - but they are just Claudes and Oscars.

The big early change is the Mike - that is its real code name - because it was seen flying in Japan. It is the Me-109. IRL it was the Me-109E - and only three were built - for test purposes - and while its engine was produced (and used on the Ki-61 and Judy) - and jigs were obtained -
it lost out to the Ki-44. In EOS it still loses out to the Ki-44 - but is adopted as an interim fighter - until the Ki-44 can complete development (a bird in the hand so to speak). Further - the variant of the E called the T (for Traeger or carrier) is produced - and used on CVLs and CVEs.

I think this is your plane: the Me-109 T (known as A9M1 in naval service where A = Fighter; 9 = design sequence number; M = Mitsubishi and 1 = engine sequence number). It has no leggs - but it is armed almost the same as a Zero - 2 cannon and 2 MMG - it is a good interceptor - and it is able to land on a ship. It has one advantage over all Japanese fighters in this period: it has armor - a lesson learned in ETO (Me-109 has been around since the Spanish Civil War). Not bad - until the Ki-44 arrives late in 1942 - and becomes the standard Japanese interceptor.

Ki-44s in HISTORICAL scenarios arrive as landplanes but upgrade to carrier planes - because the ARMY selected it as such.
In EOS there are NO Army carriers - so it upgrades only to a land fighter - and the Me-109 takes over the upgrade slot as a carrier fighter.

I have no problem or have never had a problem with your a/c models for the EOS,AIO, MAIO etc games. None of the equipment changes concern me, they are irrelevant and just part of those games. They are not my cup of tea so my next game will be the CAIO. Please don't get sidetracked here defending your changes at the expense of the real issues that are related to the base 7.91 mod.

BTW, will you please reaffirm that the Japanese AI will follow the original (RL historical) CVO strategy.

[el cid again]

Yes. CAIO is merely CVO with things AI does not understand big time removed from play. It is stock programming in the slots.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: JeffK

engineer, the AVG became 23rd Fighter Group USAAF.

Because many of the pilots were Navy or Marine(a la Boyington) they did not all transfer, I dont know if the USAAF pilots had a choice.

IMHO, I would leave the AVG in P40B if they are fighting Oscar, and only change to the P40E if faced by Zeke.

Not in part of Sid's world. They fight a hy-bred, but I am going to stick with the AVG P-40Bs (which are different that the P-40Bs at least Art wise.

Another problems was that the P-40B was getting quite scarce by 1942, reality is that
" Shortages in equipment with spare parts almost impossible to obtain in Burma along with the slow introduction of replacement fighter aircraft were continual impediments although the AVG did receive 50 replacement P-40E fighters from USAAF stocks toward the end of its combat tour."

Hope that helps

[JeffroK]

You can stretch their longevity a bit by using P40B's left when US based Sqns upgrade. They then use the Stargate to arrive in India the next day.

[el cid again]

If a place is distant from sources, I self impose delays for transit - or if a place is impossible to reach (say - Hawaii under siege) - I force fighters to come in on ships - or fly off carriers - but do NOT let them "replace in." I don't entirely believe in stargate technology.

[Buck Beach]

Post withdrawn. Everything stated in references already accounted for in the RHS.

[JeffroK]

BuckBeach,
From the RAAF Official History p387
 [font="times new roman"][left]No. 226 Fighter Group, the headquarters of which were formed in[/left][left]Palembang by Air Commodore Vincent when he arrived on 1st February ,[/left][left]maintained (as planned) a token flight of Hurricanes on Singapore Island[/left][left]until 9th February . The group was based on P .1 where lack of communication[/left][left]facilities caused delays in taking off for interception with enem y[/left][left]aircraft. It included Hurricanes and a few Buffaloes from Singapore bu t[/left][left]most of its total of about 50 Hurricanes had been flown off H .M.S .[/left][/font][font="times new roman"][left]Indomitable [/font][font="times new roman"]with their guns still protected by anti-corrosive grease .[/font][font="times new roman"]5 [/font][font="times new roman"]The[/left][left]task of cleaning these guns and making them ready for combat withou t[/left][left]the usual facilities delayed operations . Except for the commanding officer s[/left][left]and flight commanders, the pilots of these aircraft had come direct fro m[/left][left]operational training units : that they proved capable of spirited comba t[/left][left]was greatly to their credit. To improve the climb and manoeuvrabilit y[/left][left]of their Hurricanes the four outside guns were removed ; it was considered[/left][font="times new roman"][left]that the remaining eight guns would be adequate against the unarmoure d[/left][left]Japanese fighter aircraft . All the technical work was performed unde r[/left][left]difficulties . Tool kits and battery chargers were too few and there wer e[/left][left]no battery-charging facilities at the aerodrome . Inevitably the standard of[/left][left]serviceability remained low .[/left][left]..........[/left][font="times new roman"][left]On 12th February the group was reinforced by 8 Hurricanes—part o f[/left][left]a shipment of 39 which, together with a pool of 15 pilots and the ground[/left][left]staff of three squadrons (Nos . 232, 258 and 605) had reached Batavia[/left][left]on the 4th. Nine more Hurricanes were flown in to P .1 next day while[/left][left]the aerodrome was under an air attack . Though short of fuel the incomin g[/left][left]Hurricanes inevitably were drawn into the battle and 6 of them either[/left][left]crashed or were shot down.[/left][left]..........[/left][font="times new roman"][left]At dawn on 13th January No. 21/453 Squadron, with 14 Buffaloes ,[/left][left]was ready for the big event—the arrival of the convoy carrying the 5 1[/left][left]Hurricane fighters . As the convoy approached the island, one half steaming[/left][left]towards Keppel Harbour and the other half towards the naval base ,[/left][left]enemy air formations numbering about 100 aircraft were reported to be[/left][left]approaching . It was at this critical moment that the weather, which seeme d[/left][left]to have favoured the enemy so consistently since the Malayan campaig n[/left][left]began, turned against them . Closing in rapidly a heavy cloud formatio n[/left][left]completely screened the convoy from the Japanese bombers and screene d[/left][left]the attackers from the circling Buffaloes . For the next 24 hours weather ,[/left][left]as "bad" as Singapore had known for a long time, gave the convoy complete[/left][left]freedom from air attack not only in berthing but in disembarkin g[/left][left]its troops and unloading its cargo.[/left][left]Reinforcements included in this convoy were a brigade of the 18th[/left][left]British Division ; the 51 Hurricane fighters, in crates, accompanied b y[/left][left]24 Hurricane pilots from Nos. 17, 135 and 136 (Fighter) Squadron s[/left][left]R.A.F.; and a nucleus ground staff of No . 232 (Fighter) Squadron[/left][left]R.A.F., the new Hurricane squadron for Far East Command . Some indication[/left][left]has been given of the tension that existed as the convoy approached ;[/left][left]its safe arrival produced a sense of exultation among those who knew[/left][left]what it had brought. Understandably they felt that this, at last, migh t[/left][left]be the turning point ; here was the means to sweep the Japanese from the[/left][/font][font="times new roman"][left]skies and stem their advance on the Malayan mainland . Thus stimulated[/left][left]they went to work with all speed to prepare the Hurricanes for battle .[/left][left] [/left][left]The full historiws are available at www.awm.gov.au[/left][/font][/font][/font][/font]

[Buck Beach]

Thanks so much, great information. Back to the drawing board for me. Really proves the old saying "You can't tell the players without a program".