mortors are too powerful

[STIENER]

i think the mortors are way too powerfull in this game. they take out a/c's with ease...h/t's too and also ...yes A/T guns! it actually wrecks the game IMHO. we went through this a million times with CC5 and GJS and had to dumb them down to make it playable. its not historically correct IMO with them being so accurate. i call BS on anyone who says you can destroy......not disable... a german A/C with an 80 mm mortor at 1000 yds.
any plans to dumb them down??

[TDeacon]

Here's what I posted in the Mods section; I will repost here; anyone have any suggestions on how to do this?

<quote>
I may want to lessen the vulnerability of open-topped vehicles to mortars. They seem to be a bit more vulnerable than in real life, due to the fact that mortar response time in the game is much faster and much more coordinated (via "global consciousness") than in real life.

I don't think that this response/consciousness issue is easily changed, so I am looking for an equivalent "net effect" change. One idea I was considering is modifying the vehicle characteristics, so that open-topped vehicles have some degree of protection against mortar shells, intermediate between the current nothing, and that of a tank.

I notice that "Vehicles.txt" has columns for "top armor", and also for "turret crew cover top". I assume I would have to change both of these to get slightly greater survivability against mortars landing in the crew compartment? Any ideas as to how these 2 parameters function? What if I gave an M10 TD "top armor" of 2mm, and "turret crew cover top" of 200 out of 512? Would this be the cleanest way to effect this desired "net effect" change?
<unquote>

[TDeacon]

Maybe a better solution is to reduce mortar accuracy with "Base Accuracy HE" in "Weapons.txt".&nbsp;
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However, with respect to the open-topped armored vehicle, isn't it really like&nbsp;a movable entrenchment?&nbsp; If so, it should have an inherent resistence to indirect fire approaching that of an entrenchment.&nbsp; Not as good as a closed-top vehicle, but better than they are now.&nbsp; Thus, in addition to reducing mortar accuracy, perhaps the open-topped vehicles should be modded as well, using the "Vehicles.txt" "top armor" and "turret crew cover top" suggestion above.&nbsp; Comments?

[TheReal_Pak40]

Steiner, this has been debated many times on this forum, just do a search on the topic and see.

The reality is that an 81mm mortar can, in fact, take out an armored car or HT at 1000 yards if that round falls on top of it.
TDeacon is correct, the real problem isn't the lethality of the mortar round, it's the quickness of the mortar team to adjust to target, let loose a round and then the actual impact of the round. The entire process takes about 3 seconds which is entirely unrealistic. Unfortunately this is hard coded in CC so modders cannot adjust these values so they must try to compensate for it in other ways.

Also, I don't think there is a problem with the round accuracy. If the mortar team does not have LOS to the target then the rounds have a wider radius in which they fall. If the mortar team is within a command radius of a spotting leader team then round radius is reduced. If the team has direct LOS to the target then the radius is even small, I think it's 5m in the tests that I did. Although I have no direct experience with mortars this seems accurate with everything I have read or heard about them with respect to CC's tight engagement distances.

The response time for offboard mortars and artillery is just as unrealistic. Actually it's worse considering that the response time is supposed to take longer and the fact that it's always dead on accurate.

[TDeacon]

Too quick yes, but the greater issue is the instantaneous communication between friendly entities.&nbsp; Thus, if an infantry team sees the M-10 behind the building, they have a direct mind-link with all other friendly units, and can call in mortars etc.&nbsp;

[STIENER]

Real pak 40........... "The reality is that an 81mm mortar can, in fact, take out an armored car or HT at 1000 yards if that round falls on top of it."
your right... BUT... the chances of hitting the target right on top of it, is almost impossible at 1000 +/-
it just wasnt done in ww2......an EXTREMELY lucky shot perhaps. the purpose of mortors is inf suppression / kill......not vehicle knocking out. crews wouldnt even waste there ammo on vehicles. its totally unrealistic. why did they use inf held anti tank weapons if mortors worked so well at taking out vehicles. beacause it just didnt happen thats why.

TDeacon...your on to something there....thats how the modders in CC5 compansated for it by changing the factors. they did it for A/T guns too which IMO is even more important than the vehicles.

[TheReal_Pak40]

ORIGINAL: TDeacon

Too quick yes, but the greater issue is the instantaneous communication between friendly entities.  Thus, if an infantry team sees the M-10 behind the building, they have a direct mind-link with all other friendly units, and can call in mortars etc. 

Yes, that's a big problem too. Combat Mission has handled this well, I think. On board mortars must either have direct LOS to the target or be within communication range of a leader unit that has direct LOS to the target.

[TheReal_Pak40]

ORIGINAL: STIENER
your right... BUT... the chances of hitting the target right on top of it, is almost impossible at 1000 +/-
it just wasnt done in ww2......an EXTREMELY lucky shot perhaps. the purpose of mortors is inf suppression / kill......not vehicle knocking out. crews wouldnt even waste there ammo on vehicles. its totally unrealistic.

Actually, I'd be willing to bet that it happened more than you think. But why are we talking about 1000 meter distances when that is never going to happen in CC maps? Most mortar engagements in CC are within 300m where it is quite easy for a mortar team to take out an open top vehicle if it has LOS to it. Mortars are very accurate in real life if the crew can spot the target. If not, then they must rely on a spotter. If the spotter is good then I think the mortar crew can be just as accurate but it may take longer due to the communication issues.

ORIGINAL: STIENER why did they use inf held anti tank weapons if mortors worked so well at taking out vehicles. beacause it just didnt happen thats why.

This is a silly argument. This depends entirely on the range to the target. If the target is within 100m then yes, they will use a schrek or bazooka. But if it was farther away and they had a chance to take out a HT with a mortar then you can bet they tried and were sometimes successful. Why risk lives by getting in close with a bazooka when a mortar can do the job from 300 meters and keep your men safe? This is one reason why they issue mortars to front line units, so that company commanders have a way to attack targets that would otherwise be risky to attack.

[Pzt_Serk]

ORIGINAL: TheReal_Pak40

This is a silly argument. This depends entirely on the range to the target. If the target is within 100m then yes, they will use a schrek or bazooka. But if it was farther away and they had a chance to take out a HT with a mortar then you can bet they tried and were sometimes successful. Why risk lives by getting in close with a bazooka when a mortar can do the job from 300 meters and keep your men safe? This is one reason why they issue mortars to front line units, so that company commanders have a way to attack targets that would otherwise be risky to attack.

The problem is there...maybe they were sometime succesfull but in the current game, they are always succesfull. The final outcome is not even an issue, only time and # of rounds needed to kill the HT or ATG might change depending on luck. I even completly destroyed a tank destroyer (Hellcat) in my last fight at around 280 m... so much for bringing that TD in the fight at start, my opponent would have been better off using an extra mortar team...and you know what? this is what he is doing now...

That's the way to go, bring 3 or 4 mortar teams, keep them very close to the ennemy to maximize accuracy (you don't need direct los at 200-300m range, they always fire spot on) and give appropriate cover from mg it's a cakewalk. They completly prevent any infantry movement even killing sneaking men (so you don't need infantry on your own to stop the ennemy, plus mortar team are strong enough to hold their ground in firefight vs regular infantry). HT/TD are also automaticly suppressed/immobilized if not outright destroyed.

As it is, the only units that can move foward are regular tanks...


I'd recommend using CCV's GJS-TRSM mod mortars as they are the best represented in this mod IMO. They have two mortars per team, can take out guns with luck, they kill running infantry but wont wipe-out the whole squad, will suppress ambushed or sneaking infantry but wont kill them, will immobilize HT with luck but wont hurt the crew (may suppress them)or kill the thing (same for TD but they very rarely be immobilized so its usually a waste of ammo). That being said, it forces you to use OB mortar or arty to take out guns or TD or better, to use good tactic (like suppression with mortar and then move a tank in LOS to get the kill)[;)]

Sorry if my post might sound harsh but I feel that had to be said [:)]

Cheers,

[TheReal_Pak40]

ORIGINAL: Pzt_Serk

The problem is there...maybe they were sometime succesfull but in the current game, they are always succesfull. The final outcome is not even an issue, only time and # of rounds needed to kill the HT or ATG might change depending on luck. I even completly destroyed a tank destroyer (Hellcat) in my last fight at around 280 m... so much for bringing that TD in the fight at start, my opponent would have been better off using an extra mortar team...and you know what? this is what he is doing now...

Yes, and you were successful in killing that Hellcat because you could quickly bring in a lot of mortar rounds. If CC modeled the onboard artillery correctly then your opponent would have had a lot of time to recognize that his cat was under mortar attack and move it to safety. As it is now, you can quickly drop 5 rounds in about 15 seconds.

That's the way to go, bring 3 or 4 mortar teams, keep them very close to the ennemy to maximize accuracy (you don't need direct los at 200-300m range, they always fire spot on) and give appropriate cover from mg it's a cakewalk. They completly prevent any infantry movement even killing sneaking men (so you don't need infantry on your own to stop the ennemy, plus mortar team are strong enough to hold their ground in firefight vs regular infantry). HT/TD are also automaticly suppressed/immobilized if not outright destroyed.

I've read many times about this being an issue in real life. Open topped vehicles are vulnerable. But you're wrong about their accuracy. If they don't have LOS or a leader spotter close by then their accuracy suffers; it is NOT spot on, especially at 200-300 meters. Test it yourself.

[Pzt_Serk]

ORIGINAL: TheReal_Pak40

Yes, and you were successful in killing that Hellcat because you could quickly bring in a lot of mortar rounds. If CC modeled the onboard artillery correctly then your opponent would have had a lot of time to recognize that his cat was under mortar attack and move it to safety. As it is now, you can quickly drop 5 rounds in about 15 seconds.

Yes, and IIRC, it has been acknowledge there was no way to correct the ROF for mortars as well as travelling time of the round in the air, so we need another way to make up for this...my proposition is to reduce their accuracy and make them less powerfull vs open topped vehicle, I'd even reduce their lethality vs crawling infantry too...that would make them real supression weapon, not game killer, that should be reserved to OB arty and mortar barrage IMO. What do you propose?

I've read many times about this being an issue in real life. Open topped vehicles are vulnerable. But you're wrong about their accuracy. If they don't have LOS or a leader spotter close by then their accuracy suffers; it is NOT spot on, especially at 200-300 meters. Test it yourself.

I did just that, at 200m all my rounds were within 10m from the target. At 300, its about 20m. In game term, it is very accurate IMO, especially when compared to some other CCV mods...

Again, what to to suggest to prevent the overuse of mortar? It's not like I was the only one complaining about this issue neither.

Cheers,

[STIENER]

Serk is making very good points IMO. your right that most maps in CC4 are about 500m maybe a bigger in some maps [ the maps in GJS are up to 1000m ] but in CC4 the terrain is very hilly and full of tree's and buildings. in short LOS is vey poor over long distances. the short of this is mortors are too damn accurate and lots of players agree. hitting a moving target at 400m ..1200 yds! is not an easy thing ..spotter or not...were talking about WW2 mortors her with sometimes and at the bulge...GREEN yank crews.
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the short of it still is there too damn accurate and powerful and IMO [ and serks too ] we need something done about it to make game play better. thats what its all about is game play&nbsp;for gods sake. [:-]

[thesock]

I served 10 years in the British army. When an attacking force calls up fire support. 1. The mortars shouldn't be in direct line of sight of the enemy. 2. When the forward fire controller calls up for fire support then several things come in to effect. The controller and the mortar commanders map reading ability (the controller may be from the mortar platoon which is ideal, or he may be the infantry platoon commander, not so good. After map co-ordinates are exchanged (hello 52 this is 31c fire mission over, 52 send over, 31c grid 463978 bearing 327, enemy AT gun fire for effect over, 52 wait out. 31c this 52 shot over, 31c shot out). A mortar round should now hopefully land near the target, and equally hopefully within sight of the controller. He will now call for adjustments ie. Up 50 and left 100. The mortar will now fire another round for effect. If this hits the target area then your in business. It's a bit of a long winded process which can be quite slick depending on the experience of the troops involved. This is fire support on the wing.
A quicker way is a preset fire plan. This can be done in defence or before a set piece attack. This is where the mortar team sets pre-recorded targets which are allocated a code word. So Blue 2 maybe the centre of a ridge line, you can then call for HE on Blue 2, the mortar team set their sights at the pre-recorded settings for Blue 2 and start firing. Blue 2 can also be used as a reference ie. HE Blue 2 left 100 fire for effect.

Well that's enough of real life. In the game if every time you call down mortar fire it takes so long the target is gone before the rounds impact then there is no point in having them. So the game speed should match the coded pre-recorded target speed. Perhaps 5-10 seconds. What should help in the open top vehicle and AT gun vulnerability stakes is that the first couple of rounds should be inaccurate. with the longer the stonk the more accurate the bombs become. Also a fire support mission should only be able to be called by a Leader squad that in it's self has line of sight to the target area.

[Andrew Williams]

with the longer the stonk the more accurate the bombs become. Also a fire support mission should only be able to be called by a Leader squad that in it's self has line of sight to the target area.

That's the sort of thing we have been discussing as to whether it is doable given our code base.

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: Pzt_Serk
I'd recommend using CCV's GJS-TRSM mod mortars as they are the best represented in this mod IMO. . . .

Where can I DL that?

I just want to chime in here as supportively and constructively as possible. I'm playing with the latest patch, as Germany on easiest difficulty.

This is a fantastic game. A few little problems I've observed:
* AT Guns and Inf Guns move at a snails pace [particularly it seems when you play on Slow Game Speed Setting], yes I know they should be slower than a MG or an infantry squad, but they just seem way too slow
* AT Guns seem to get stuck if there is a rut in the road
* Vehicles get temporarily 'stuck' a little too often
* Infantry don't always stay inside buildings when you order them to 'go down a hallway, turn left, then turn right, then go out the window')
* Units inside stone buildings seem a little bit too vulnerable to mortars and small to medium-sized guns, this could just be me not understanding how to position them inside the building?

One intermediate Problem:
* Positioning units: there is not enough control over positioning units at the outset. It is very difficult to get your units positioned exactly where you want them. For AT Guns the problem here may be the size and dimensions of the Gun not fitting with surround obstructions? But for Infantry squads it wiould be nice if I could more or less position individual soldiers, particularly inside buildings. I'm guessing based on observing casualties, and success at firing out of buildings that exact position relative to windows and doors or openings is taken into account in combat calculations, but then I don't have exact control over how they are positioned inside the building. I try to make a 'slight adjustment and two or three guys pop outside the building itself!

But the two (one?) major problem(s):
1) AT Guns, even when well concealed, IMMEDIATELY draw enemy fire with an unerring accuracy, and all too often one shot destroys the gun. Were AT Guns really _that_ vulnerable? There really doesn't seem much point in bringing them to a battle the way they work in this game. I think in the span of playing about 35 hours (binging this weekend I should say) I was able to take out ONE Sherman tank with an AT Gun as he came around a corner. That with having used probably 6 AT Guns in about 15 battles. This problem does not seem quite so bad with the Infantry Gun, but given how immobile both of these squads are, I really don't see much purpose in using them in the game, which seems a shame. They were in the German arsenal, and it seems they should have a role in the game, besides being left behind because they are cannon fodder/immobile fixtures in the landscape.

2) Mortar fire will land all around an infantry squad, suppressing them, wounding some maybe killing a couple, even without LOS, but then as soon as a AT Gun around a corner and hidden in trees fires off one shot, *BOOM* in one mortar fire the gun is destroyed. It is like AT Guns have a homing beacon on them, and also trigger charges set to self-destruct the gun when it takes a hit from an enemy mortar round. In contrast, most of the feckless gun crew (who then crawl off to hide and refuse to follow any orders at all) generally survive! How does a gun get destroyed and leave the crew surviving? I would think it would be much easier to kill/maim the crew than to destroy the gun itself?

One last suggestion/wish list item: I wish I could specify special orders for individual soldiers. I notice that when an MG crew gets attacked, the gunner rarely seems to get killed. My guess is that this represents the fact that in an actual MG crew the whole squad would be trained to run the MG, and as soon as the gunner gets killed, another guy would take over? Also seems to work this way with bazookas and Pzshrecks. Have not noticed if it works this way with vehicles, and mortars.

In any event, assuming my guess here is right, I like how this works. But it would be neat to have even more control over individual soldier actions. For example, very often a soldier will have no ammo, but another guy in his squad with the same weapon or a non-specialist weapon has been killed. I have noticed messages about actions such as "foraging for ammo." It would be nice to have this sort of command option. Or if the mortar is out of ammo, tell the gunner to stay behind and hold the house. Another thing that would be cool is if there were two or three generalized 'formations' you could tell them to assume: (a) follow the leader single-file; (b) fan out; (c) clump); (d) hide.

Oh yeah, one last thing: being able to place orders while paused against the AI would have been nice.

ADDIT: _One_ more thing! [:D]

It is slightly annoying that the option to save games only happens after a battle has been finished. I like to name my squads (1st Command; 1st MG (Jager); 1st Jager; 1st Sniper; 1st Stug; 2nd Command; 2nd MG (Jager), etc.), and I was thankful to see that these are preserved through and after a battle. But I cannot save as I progress in writing these names, which in some instances causes me to have to start over and write all their names again.

Is there a reason you cannot save the game during a battle while playing the AI, or am I just missing the keystroke for this?