What Just Happened?

[rahamundo]

Playing Russia.....turn 75, March 1941...Germany finally launches it war against me. During those 75 turns I researche artillery and tanks to level two and had upgraded all my on map units accordingly...infantry were now 4's and 5' and armor 6's to 9' in strength. As soon as Germany invades and it is my turn....all my units on the map drop down to beginning status...all infantry are now 1's and armor 2's and 3's....?? Is this supposed to happened and if so, why? Thanks.

[doomtrader]

In reality the Russian Army was not so strong as it thought.

[PDiFolco]

Lol, that's the funniest and weirdest reply to a gameplay issue I can remind !! Do you mean it's WAD ?? [X(]

[Hard Sarge]

I would think that is there surprise rule for the beginning of the attack

[rahamundo]

Hard Sarge......so it was built into the game to reflect the surprise of the attack.....is it permanent? Or will the units regain their strength? If permanent it makes building the army up ahead of time a waste of time and pp's. You might as well horde the pp's spending them on nothing but research then wait for the attack before you start building the armies strenght. Odd design decision if that is the way it is. I'm hoping it is the former, that their strength will return after the surprise wears off.

[doomtrader]

Soviet units effect. has ben reduced but it will go up again with time

[gwgardner]

sounds like a good effect, but perhaps when it occurs the game should pop up with an explanation - Stalin's directives, surprise, whatever

What I'm surprised about is that no one else has reported this! Is it an effect that only sometimes occurs? All the better, if so.

[Anraz]

When the war with Germany started soviet units were unable to attack and unable to defend. A lot of soldiers just fled, some revolted, surrendered or joined to invaders. Whole logistic system was extremely ineffective and soviet troops were out of food, ammo, fuel and spare parts... Many (some says event most of) soviet leader were extremely incompetent. Tactics was poor, or maybe rather there was no tactic! Communications was broken, command structure was broken, everything was broken. Chaos is the best word to describe the situation. We all do know it. IIRC the penalty now is only -25%, why not to rise it up to e.g. 50%?

[JFalk68]

Can't forget Stalin's "Great Purge", the Soviets lost quite a few officers in the late 30's

[rahamundo]

I understand the explanations but it kind of pulls the rug out of bothering to play the Russians in the full campaign starting in 1939 if no matter what you do the game engine is going to reset the situation to mimic the start of the historical German invasion, regardless of your actions or time frame it occurs in. I would have thought one of the lures of a game at this level (this is my first attempt at this type of game) is the ability to change historical outcomes. Anyway....I am having fun with the game in spite of this disappointing turn of events, it is fast paced....one of those 'just another turn and then I'll quit' games that keeps you up late at night.

[RandomAttack]

I agree with rahamundo.  And on the one hand, while I understand the dev's having all these "surprise, surprise"  events I find it equally "gamey" to hide many of these events so the player can't predict/expect something this severe happening.  If it lasted just a turn or two it might be ok. 

Being an "expert" on WWII doesn't tell you which pieces of history are going to be implemented, or how.  I guess it can help you rationalize it after the fact though.

My biggest concern is getting many hours/turns into a game like this only to find a "gotcha" moment that isn't documented or explained.  I don't WANT to start over because someone thought it would be cute to spring a surprise-- I find it very frustrating and annoying.  RGW (how old is it now?) does a fine job of implementing realistic considerations at the operational level without resorting to all the gimmickry. 

Finally, when something like this is "hidden", it ALWAYS raises the question: BUG or FEATURE?  [:D]

[Anraz]

I think we can change it into something visible

[cpdeyoung]

Stalin knew it was coming (See GPW AAR) because I played the USSR scenario before. That was why he was so worried when the Soviet position looked so very strong. Once you know it is coming you can have multiple defensive positions, etc. It is not the end for the Red Army!

Chuck

[PDiFolco]

The Red Army was especially bad by June 22, 1941, but it was bad from the 30's on and only recovered by end of 41 under Axis pressure. The Finnish war showed their shortcomings quite clearly in 40.
An additional possible rule would be to reduce somewhat all Soviet effectiveness till mid-41 or until the Axis attack, then have them increase regularly. In addition there should be the surprise effect when Axis strike, as done already, to simulate Stalin's stubborness to admit he was attacked.

[oldspec4]

Wow, I've been playing Barbarossa so I started out w/ low value units.

What other surprises are out there?

[JFalk68]

Stalin didn't think the attack was coming soon, he believed Germany on it's own would never attack him. He berated Timoshenko for proposing a first strike against the Germans

[RandomAttack]

All is true and the effects have been modeled many ways in many games.  This is not an issue with history, but with game implementation.  I think the main point is not that it is addressed-- but that is addressed in "secret".  But, looks like they are already considering addressing it...

[JFalk68]

So what can you do in the first 75 turns to prepare for the German invasion? Research gets set back to beginning stats but can you recruit extra units?

[cpdeyoung]

Research does not get set back. It is your saving grace, and vital.

What does happen is you take a major hit in effectivness. This will wear off, but you will have 4SP units at an effective strength of 2. When you lose this "2SP" unit your loss will be recorded as "4SP" lost, which is why you see such rapid, and horrifying, escalation in your losses. I am posting an AAR of Barbarossa now (GPW-Stalin) and you can see the effect. As the human in charge of the defense of the USSR you must realize that when your men hear the MG-42 they are going to really wonder what they have gotten into. They are still brave, but they are not the mid-century German Army. Every army which met them learned a lesson, some more painful than others. The lesson for the USSR is painful indeed, but you can survive.

So, long live research, long live defense in depth, and pray for winter.

Chuck

[JFalk68]

Chuck, thanks for your reply. I have been following your AAR's and the goings on here on the forum. I have downloaded the demo and tonight also downloaded the demo of Strategic Command 2 because somewhere I read there are some similarities between the two games and SC2 has got some good/decent grades from some

I have enjoyed the Time of Wrath demo much more and imo its presented in a more elegant way then SC2. The counters in TOW and the way combat happened in TOW I enjoyed much more also, the counters and combat in SC2 seemed too abstract for me. I have to correct myself about the counters, I downloaded the counter mod you are using in your AAR's, I like that so much better then the default metalic looking counters.

The prescence of the develops on this board and playing the demo has me convinced to take the plunge so I will probably download the game tonight or tomorrow sometime.