Well this isn't going to end well ***spoiler alert***

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Iridium

I still think surface combat is a little goofy. A surface combat fleet with 4 CLs and 10 DDs is a decent force but when faced with 2 BB, 2 CA, 2 CL and 8 DD screening 4 CVs? Should the outcome be this one sided in just the surface combat alone? Especially midday when this occurred. How did the fleets engage at 5000 yards in day time anyhow? Explanations would be nice at least, something like, "Allied TF comes out of squall. Japanese TF surprised.", this would be nice.

I had enough long time ago regarding the stock release for naval combat,the Japanese surface fleet are all blind folded,that is how the surface action took place at 5000 yds in broad daylight,plus I think they were are all drunk on saki the night before.[:D]

The Japanese scored 29 shell hits + 1 torpedo hit compared to the allies 237 shell hits + 9 torpedo hit's someone is taking the piss me thinks.[:-]

I have resorted to reducing the allied accuracy settings for all guns with the editor,while increasing the accuracy for the japanese gunnery,because the stock settings, are biased to the allies big time,as the weaker side gubbing the stronger Jap fleet shows the gulf in hits at 5000 yds is unbeilevable.[:@]

[JohnDillworth]

OK,  cut off some of the combat report which indicates low visability due to thunderstorms.  The weather was bad, which is how I got so close.  Still, unrealistic.  But it was aresponse to an unrealistic situation.  The KB was running below Colombo for days on end and did not seem to have any limitation of fuel or ammo.  Therefor I was justified in the result[:)]

full post:
============================
Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 5,000 Yards
 
Japanese aircraft
      no flights
 
Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses
 
Japanese Ships
      CV Kaga
      CV Hiryu, Shell hits 2,  on fire
      CV Soryu, Shell hits 4
      CV Shokaku, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
      BB Haruna, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 4,  on fire,  heavy damage
      BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
      CA Chikuma, Shell hits 9
      CA Aoba, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
      CL Natori, Shell hits 2
      CL Tama, Shell hits 17,  heavy fires
      DD Oyashio, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
      DD Maikaze, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
      DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
      DD Arare, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
      DD Uranami, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
      DD Okikaze, Shell hits 5
      DD Nokaze, Shell hits 4,  on fire
      DD Asagao, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
 
Allied Ships
      CL Durban, Shell hits 1
      CL Caledon, Shell hits 1
      CL Capetown, Shell hits 10,  heavy fires
      CL Colombo, Shell hits 11
      DD Tjerk Hiddes
      DD Stronghold
      DD Decoy
      DD Express
      DD Fortune, Shell hits 1
      DD Griffin
      DD Isis, Shell hits 1
      DD Jupiter, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
      DD Norman
      DD Panther, Shell hits 4,  on fire
 
 
 
Low visibility due to Thunderstorms
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 5,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 5,000 yards
CL Colombo launches Torpedoes at CV Shokaku at 5,000 yards
CL Capetown launches Torpedoes at CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
CL Caledon launches Torpedoes at CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
DD Panther launches Torpedoes at CV Shokaku at 5,000 yards
DD Norman launches Torpedoes at BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
DD Jupiter launches Torpedoes at BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
DD Isis launches Torpedoes at CA Chikuma at 5,000 yards
CL Colombo launches Torpedoes at CL Tama at 5,000 yards
DD Panther fires at DD Asagao at 5,000 yards
DD Stronghold launches Torpedoes at DD Asagao at 5,000 yards
DD Asagao sunk by DD Tjerk Hiddes at 5,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes fires at DD Arare at 5,000 yards
DD Stronghold fires at DD Maikaze at 5,000 yards
DD Isis fires at DD Oyashio at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
CL Colombo engages CV Shokaku at 2,000 yards
DD Panther engages CV Soryu at 2,000 yards
DD Isis engages CV Hiryu at 2,000 yards
CL Colombo engages CV Kaga at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Panther at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Norman at 2,000 yards
DD Arare engages DD Jupiter at 2,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Caledon at 2,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Colombo at 2,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Fortune at 2,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Maikaze at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Express at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Stronghold at 2,000 yards
DD Arare engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 2,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Fortune at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 2,000 yards
CL Colombo engages CL Tama at 2,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CA Chikuma at 2,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Caledon at 2,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Durban at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Panther at 2,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Colombo at 2,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Jupiter at 2,000 yards
CL Tama engages DD Isis at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Griffin at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Fortune at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Express at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Isis at 2,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Stronghold at 2,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Natsugumo at 2,000 yards
DD Jupiter engages CV Shokaku at 2,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CA Chikuma at 2,000 yards
CL Caledon engages CA Chikuma at 2,000 yards
CL Durban engages CL Tama at 2,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CL Colombo at 2,000 yards
DD Norman engages DD Natsugumo at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Jupiter at 2,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CL Tama at 2,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Uranami at 2,000 yards
DD Isis engages DD Nokaze at 2,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Maikaze at 2,000 yards
DD Arare sunk by DD Decoy at 2,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Maikaze at 2,000 yards
DD Isis engages CV Shokaku at 2,000 yards
DD Norman engages CV Soryu at 2,000 yards
CL Caledon engages CV Hiryu at 2,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Durban at 2,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Panther at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Norman at 2,000 yards
DD Jupiter sunk by DD Uranami at 2,000 yards
CL Durban engages CL Tama at 2,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Capetown at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Fortune at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Express at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Decoy at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Stronghold at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami sunk by DD Tjerk Hiddes at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio sunk by DD Griffin at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
DD Panther engages CV Soryu at 4,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Caledon at 4,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Durban at 4,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages DD Panther at 4,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Caledon at 4,000 yards
DD Isis engages DD Natsugumo at 4,000 yards
CL Tama engages DD Griffin at 4,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Fortune at 4,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Isis at 4,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Decoy at 4,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Stronghold at 4,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Okikaze at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
CL Colombo engages CV Shokaku at 3,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CA Chikuma at 3,000 yards
CL Caledon engages CV Hiryu at 3,000 yards
DD Fortune engages CV Kaga at 3,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Panther at 3,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Capetown at 3,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Isis at 3,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Capetown at 3,000 yards
DD Fortune engages DD Okikaze at 3,000 yards
DD Fortune engages DD Nokaze at 3,000 yards
DD Decoy engages DD Natsugumo at 3,000 yards
DD Natsugumo sunk by DD Norman at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
DD Isis engages CV Shokaku at 4,000 yards
DD Griffin engages CV Soryu at 4,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Caledon at 4,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Durban at 4,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Panther at 4,000 yards
CL Durban engages BB Haruna at 4,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages DD Isis at 4,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Griffin at 4,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Capetown at 4,000 yards
DD Fortune engages DD Nokaze at 4,000 yards
DD Decoy engages DD Okikaze at 4,000 yards
DD Stronghold engages DD Nokaze at 4,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Okikaze at 4,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[n01487477]

Therefore I was justified in the result

LOL ...  you're having a laugh mate [:D]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

I've stopped playing the stock full campaign,the bias towards the allies is overpowering,the USA will be in Tokyo by Dec 1943.The Allies bombers,fighters,submarines,destroyers asw + the surface combat imbalance is over powering.[&:]

I have resorted to letting the AI play against it's self for 14 days or so, and note down all the glaring unusual outcomes that I see happening, in the mean time,make changes via the editor to see if the tweaks that I apply help solve the problem.Early signs are good,and the contest is very much more historical,with both sides slugging it out like a couple of heavy weight boxers.[:D]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

JohnDillworth

Low visibility due to Thunderstorms
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 5,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 5,000 yards

You serious,Allied Radar spots the Japanese task force at 5000 yds, the mark 1 eyeball can see much further than that, without binoculars.[:D]

I assume radar can't see 45,000 ton metal objects through mist and fog.[;)]

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet
I've stopped playing the stock full campaign,the bias towards the allies is overpowering,the USA will be in Tokyo by Dec 1943.The Allies bombers,fighters,submarines,destroyers asw + the surface combat imbalance is over powering.

How far in did you get before you came to this conclusion?

[tigercub]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

I've stopped playing the stock full campaign,the bias towards the allies is overpowering,the USA will be in Tokyo by Dec 1943.The Allies bombers,fighters,submarines,destroyers asw + the surface combat imbalance is over powering.[&:]

I have not even started the campaign because this fear!


Tiger!

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet
I've stopped playing the stock full campaign,the bias towards the allies is overpowering,the USA will be in Tokyo by Dec 1943.The Allies bombers,fighters,submarines,destroyers asw + the surface combat imbalance is over powering.

How far in did you get before you came to this conclusion?

Hi Erik,
I't did not take me to long to see that something was a miss, there is way to much air combat,I know the carrier based tactic can work wonders,but it is a constant stream of planes,either bombing and torpedoing the beejeesus out of everything, there are thousands of combat naval vessels all sailing about every day,but you get very few surface duals,or sub v surface combats,but the planes are everywhere,attacking everything in sight, to much planes,using the editor I'm getting my own back on all the air v surface action, all my ships have much better durability & manouverability plus there AA weapons are much more effective,the planes may get alot of bomb & torpedo hit's in but,I'm damaging and shooting down alot of them as well.[;)]

Don't get me wrong great game,but I like ship's not planes so it's payback time for deposing the battleship ![;)]

Plus ships were not that easy to hit,but the game makes it out that they were,looking back at history very few battleship's were actually sunk,but they sure go glug glug glug here![;)]

[Erik Rutins]

I was mainly referring to your comment about there being an overwhelming bias towards the Allies. I think in some cases the Allies are a bit too good in surface combat early on, which is being looked at, but other than that I don't see much in the way of a bias and certainly nothing overwhelming. Balance-wise getting to Tokyo by 1943 seems like quite a long shot, especially since the Allies are no longer as dominant in the mid to later war as they were in WITP (Uber CAP toned down, Kamikazes more of a threat now, Corsairs and Hellcats are historically great but not completely invincible, island bases generally can't be built into gigantic supply depots/mega-garrisons/ports/airfields).

Regards,

- Erik

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hi Erik,
All true but my early impression's of the Japanese planes and ships, are that they are second class, the Zero's are way to weak yet they proved in history to be excellent planes,the editor soon sorted that little problem out,all ship's are far to weak,I have increased all there durabilitys,submarines firing way to many torpedo's per attack,tweaking the editor to allow for fewer torpedo's fired but still allowing for historical torpedo aiming and dud rate chance of a hit is much more enjoyable in my eyes anyway,the German Uboats, never had that problem of firing 6 or more torpedo's at a defenceless merchantman,with most of the torpedo's missing there targets.[:)]

Plus how does the anti-submarine warfare work,there is no sonar/asdic in the game,yet destroyers etc somehow manage to detect and attack subs ?[&:]

I think that unless a ship has sonar listed in it's weapons loadout,that it should not be able to attack a sub with depth charges or whatever, simple solution is just list sonar as a device in the database,and unless a ship has it in it's weapons load out no attack allowed against subs simple.[;)]

So sonar + depthcharges etc listed on board a ships weapons system,ship allowed to attack submarine's if not both listed then no attack allowed yes /no maybe perhaps ? The sonar does not even need to be programmed to do anything,other than be used in combination with depthcharges etc.[;)]

[Scott_USN]

I sent the Save game to the Dev yesterday on this issue he is looking at it. Are you sure 1943? It happened to me in April 1942 for a few weeks.

I could have killed them but instead of that I just went Head to Head and sent the KB back to Japan and they have left the area. I didn't want to spoil my game over the minor bug.

Andy or Terminus is looking into it I think I forget which I sent my Saved game to.

I have confidence they will fix it. The KB went home and everything is back to normal for me. Only took 10 20 mins to fix it. I didn't mind somethings like that are bound to happen.

It's a bug and I still have my Saved game if some other dev needs it. For me they spent 3 weeks in Celyon area I just sent them away.

[kmussler]

Had an interesting adventure around December 27-28,'41. A Jap TF (icon) appeared off the southern Gilberts headed for Canton Is. Nothing was on the island yet except the starting engineer unit, although I had a USMC DB and a USN base force a few turns away from landing. An examination of the icon by cursor gave me no information. I didn't know if the contact was a bogie or KB, nothing on the Op report or SigInt. The Enterprise was in the area, escorting a division of troops. I also had an empty group of cargo ships with a 3 DD escort heading the other way. I took a chance and detached the escort, sending it to Canton. It and the Jap TF arrived at the same time. It was a PB and AK with 1600 troops. The DD's made quick work of the transports but what a bold sneeky move! Not a move you'd see in WitP stock. Thanks Andy!

Kurt

[jimh009]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

I've stopped playing the stock full campaign,the bias towards the allies is overpowering,the USA will be in Tokyo by Dec 1943.The Allies bombers,fighters,submarines,destroyers asw + the surface combat imbalance is over powering.[&:]

I have resorted to letting the AI play against it's self for 14 days or so, and note down all the glaring unusual outcomes that I see happening, in the mean time,make changes via the editor to see if the tweaks that I apply help solve the problem.Early signs are good,and the contest is very much more historical,with both sides slugging it out like a couple of heavy weight boxers.[:D]

With the lone exception of perhaps some "over-zealous" PT boats, I haven't reached that conclusion at all.

Japanese land units are unstoppable. Allied ASW has been terrible...I've sunk exactly three submarines in four months (and one of the sunk subs sunk itself hitting a reef!), which is hardly overwhelming ASW firepower. Japanese air power is strong, but not as strong as in stock. But it's certainly strong enough to whittle down allied air units in a hurry.

I suspect the big thing a lot of people are having problems with are Allied Surface TF's. However, let me share my own results. In "true" surface TF engagements (Jap surface TF vs. Allied Surface TF), I'm not seeing the Japs get annihilated. If anything, they tend to get the better of the allies...although not nearly like before. There is definitely more randomness in the results.

Instead, what's been happening in my game is that Japanese surface forces that are part of a TRANSPORT task force are getting nailed. Yet, in a way, this makes sense. You have a bunch of transports at anchor, unloading, which are vulnerable. Suddenly an allied surface TF appears out of nowhere. Due to the element of surprise and the fact that the surface ships in a transport TF are NOT aligned properly for surface engagements...it's not surprising that the Jap surface forces are getting nailed. A surface TF is primed for surface engagement. Surface ships in a transport TF are usually not aligned for surface combat.

[Sardaukar]

Like what Andy Mac said, IJN has to be aggressive in early war with landings and there just is not enough combat ships to escort all landings properly. This is AFAIK historical too. But Allied player can take advantage of this lot better than historical counterparts. Anyway, Andy Mac said he has already added/tweaked few scripts that should help a bit with the problem. 

[Andy Mac]

Scott how you fixed it was how I was goign to fix it [:D][:D][:D]

[tigercub]

Ship combat is my only real concern and the Zero and Oscar to some degree.(of note in ship battles the US ship are Hitting with far more often than the japs with Trops is that experience of ship crews?

Note:
(overwhelming bias towards the Allies)Eric you may not think its really the case and many would not ,but when there is some thing in the game that is a problem like ship combat air combat and it favors one side, it is the Japanese side that running second in most cases, But i think is more to do with the problem of remaking history.

Tiger!  

[Bluebook]

============================
Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 5,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
     no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
     CV Kaga
     CV Hiryu, Shell hits 2,  on fire
     CV Soryu, Shell hits 4
     CV Shokaku, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
     BB Haruna, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 4,  on fire,  heavy damage
     BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
     CA Chikuma, Shell hits 9
     CA Aoba, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
     CL Natori, Shell hits 2
     CL Tama, Shell hits 17,  heavy fires
     DD Oyashio, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
     DD Maikaze, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
     DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
     DD Arare, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
     DD Uranami, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
     DD Okikaze, Shell hits 5
     DD Nokaze, Shell hits 4,  on fire
     DD Asagao, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
     CL Durban, Shell hits 1
     CL Caledon, Shell hits 1
     CL Capetown, Shell hits 10,  heavy fires
     CL Colombo, Shell hits 11
     DD Tjerk Hiddes
     DD Stronghold
     DD Decoy
     DD Express
     DD Fortune, Shell hits 1
     DD Griffin
     DD Isis, Shell hits 1
     DD Jupiter, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
     DD Norman
     DD Panther, Shell hits 4,  on fire



Low visibility due to Thunderstorms
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 5,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 5,000 yards
CL Colombo launches Torpedoes at CV Shokaku at 5,000 yards
CL Capetown launches Torpedoes at CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
CL Caledon launches Torpedoes at CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
DD Panther launches Torpedoes at CV Shokaku at 5,000 yards
DD Norman launches Torpedoes at BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
DD Jupiter launches Torpedoes at BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
DD Isis launches Torpedoes at CA Chikuma at 5,000 yards
CL Colombo launches Torpedoes at CL Tama at 5,000 yards
DD Panther fires at DD Asagao at 5,000 yards
DD Stronghold launches Torpedoes at DD Asagao at 5,000 yards
DD Asagao sunk by DD Tjerk Hiddes at 5,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes fires at DD Arare at 5,000 yards
DD Stronghold fires at DD Maikaze at 5,000 yards
DD Isis fires at DD Oyashio at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards <-- here is where the japanese force first spots the enemy
CL Colombo engages CV Shokaku at 2,000 yards
DD Panther engages CV Soryu at 2,000 yards
DD Isis engages CV Hiryu at 2,000 yards
CL Colombo engages CV Kaga at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Panther at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Norman at 2,000 yards
DD Arare engages DD Jupiter at 2,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Caledon at 2,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Colombo at 2,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Fortune at 2,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Maikaze at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Express at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Stronghold at 2,000 yards
DD Arare engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 2,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Fortune at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 2,000 yards
CL Colombo engages CL Tama at 2,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CA Chikuma at 2,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Caledon at 2,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Durban at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Panther at 2,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Colombo at 2,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Jupiter at 2,000 yards
CL Tama engages DD Isis at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Griffin at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Fortune at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Express at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Isis at 2,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Stronghold at 2,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Natsugumo at 2,000 yards
DD Jupiter engages CV Shokaku at 2,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CA Chikuma at 2,000 yards
CL Caledon engages CA Chikuma at 2,000 yards
CL Durban engages CL Tama at 2,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CL Colombo at 2,000 yards
DD Norman engages DD Natsugumo at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Jupiter at 2,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CL Tama at 2,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Uranami at 2,000 yards
DD Isis engages DD Nokaze at 2,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Maikaze at 2,000 yards
DD Arare sunk by DD Decoy at 2,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Maikaze at 2,000 yards
DD Isis engages CV Shokaku at 2,000 yards
DD Norman engages CV Soryu at 2,000 yards
CL Caledon engages CV Hiryu at 2,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Durban at 2,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Panther at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Norman at 2,000 yards
DD Jupiter sunk by DD Uranami at 2,000 yards
CL Durban engages CL Tama at 2,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Capetown at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Fortune at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Express at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Decoy at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Stronghold at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami sunk by DD Tjerk Hiddes at 2,000 yards
DD Oyashio sunk by DD Griffin at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
DD Panther engages CV Soryu at 4,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Caledon at 4,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Durban at 4,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages DD Panther at 4,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Caledon at 4,000 yards
DD Isis engages DD Natsugumo at 4,000 yards
CL Tama engages DD Griffin at 4,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Fortune at 4,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Isis at 4,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Decoy at 4,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Stronghold at 4,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Okikaze at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
CL Colombo engages CV Shokaku at 3,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CA Chikuma at 3,000 yards
CL Caledon engages CV Hiryu at 3,000 yards
DD Fortune engages CV Kaga at 3,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Panther at 3,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Capetown at 3,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Isis at 3,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Capetown at 3,000 yards
DD Fortune engages DD Okikaze at 3,000 yards
DD Fortune engages DD Nokaze at 3,000 yards
DD Decoy engages DD Natsugumo at 3,000 yards
DD Natsugumo sunk by DD Norman at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
DD Isis engages CV Shokaku at 4,000 yards
DD Griffin engages CV Soryu at 4,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Caledon at 4,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Durban at 4,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Panther at 4,000 yards
CL Durban engages BB Haruna at 4,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages DD Isis at 4,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages DD Griffin at 4,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Capetown at 4,000 yards
DD Fortune engages DD Nokaze at 4,000 yards
DD Decoy engages DD Okikaze at 4,000 yards
DD Stronghold engages DD Nokaze at 4,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Okikaze at 4,000 yards
Task forces break off...

At first I was concerned to see this very one-sided affair. Then I noticed the thunderstorms and the visibilty range of 3000. That means the japanese ships only saw the allied side at the point i highlighted above. It seems reasonable that the japs take one in the chin if they are ambushed and fired upon before spotting the enemy.

One lingering concern however, is the question whether Royal Navy radar-guided gunnery and torpedoes should be so accurate.

I think one can go either way here, so Im not going to say the results are wrong, but I am glad this is being looked at.

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Range 5000 yds and less in day time combat,hey most ships have surface radar that can detect ships 20 or 30 miles away day or night,so how come we are getting so many close in combat action.
Type 273
Type Aerial outfit Peak power (kW) Frequency (MHz) Wavelength (mm) In service
273 AQN 90 2,997 100 1941

"Centimetric Mark IV" target indication set. This set was based on the Type 271, but was intended for major warships of cruiser and battleship size. It used side-by-side 3 feet (910 mm) wide cheese antennas that were carried in a distinctive protective perspex "lantern". In the Battle of the North Cape, HMS Duke of York identified the target of Scharnhorst at 45,000 yards

Operation Ostfront was an attempt by the German Kriegsmarine to intercept the Russia-bound Arctic convoy JW 55B. The convoy, sighted three days before by a Luftwaffe aircraft, consisted of nineteen cargo vessels, escorted by the destroyers HMS Onslow, HMS Onslaught, HMS Orwell, HMS Scourge, HMS Impulsive, HMCS Haida, HMCS Huron, and HMCS Iroquois, and the minesweeper HMS Gleaner.
On 25 December 1943, Scharnhorst (Captain Fritz Hintze) with the Narvik class destroyers Z 29, Z 30, Z 33, Z 34, and Z 38 left Norway's Alta Fjord under the overall command of Konteradmiral Erich Bey.
Also in the area was convoy RA 55A, returning to the United Kingdom from Russia. RA 55A consisted of 22 cargo ships, escorted by the destroyers HMS Musketeer, Opportune, Virago, Matchless, Milne, Meteor and Ashanti, HMCS Athabascan, and the minesweeper HMS Seagull.
Unknown to the Germans was the presence in the area of major Royal Navy forces. Force 1, under Rear Admiral Robert Burnett, comprising the cruisers HMS Norfolk, Belfast, and Sheffield, was nearby. Force 2 commanded by Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser, consisting of the new battleship HMS Duke of York, the cruiser HMS Jamaica, and the S-class destroyers HMS Savage, Scorpion, Saumarez, and HNoMS Stord of the Royal Norwegian Navy, was trailing the convoy at a considerable distance.
Battle
The following day, in poor weather and heavy seas and with only minimal Luftwaffe reconnaissance to aid him, Rear Admiral Bey was unable to locate the convoy. Thinking he had overshot the enemy, he detached his destroyers and sent them southward in an attempt to increase the effective search area. Admiral Fraser, anticipating a German attack, had diverted the convoy northward, out of the area in which it was expected.
The now unescorted Scharnhorst encountered Burnett's cruisers shortly after 09:00 hours. At a distance of nearly 13,000 yards (12 km), the British cruisers opened fire and Scharnhorst responded with her own salvoes. While no hits were scored on the cruisers, the German battleship was struck twice, one shell destroying the radar controls, leaving Scharnhorst virtually blind in a mounting snowstorm. Without radar, gunners aboard the battlecruiser were forced to aim at the enemy's muzzle flashes. This was made more difficult because two of the British cruisers were using a new flashless propellant, leaving Norfolk the relatively easier target. Bey, now outgunned and believing he had engaged a battleship, turned south in an attempt to distance himself from the pursuers.
Once he believed he had shaken off his pursuers, Bey turned north-east in an attempt to circle round them. Shortly after noon, the cruisers were encountered once again. As the opposing forces exchanged fire, Scharnhorst scored hits on Norfolk, disabling a turret and her radar. Following this exchange, Bey decided to return to port in Scharnhorst, while he ordered the destroyers to attack the convoy at a position reported by a U-Boat. The reported position was out of date and the destroyers missed the convoy.
Scharnhorst ran south for several hours. Burnett pursued, but both Sheffield and Norfolk suffered engine problems and dropped back. The lack of working radar aboard Scharnhorst prevented the Germans from taking advantage of the situation, allowing the Belfast to reacquire the German ship on her Radar set.
Meanwhile, the Duke of York, with her four destroyers already pressing ahead to try to get into torpedo launching positions, had been informed of Belfast's having contact and soon they themselves picked up Scharnhorst on radar at 16:15 and was manoeuvring to bring her full broadside to bear.
At 16:48, Belfast fired starshell to illuminate Scharnhorst. The battlecruiser, with her turrets trained fore and aft, was clearly visible from Duke of York. Duke of York opened fire at a range of 11,920 yards (10.90 km) and scored a hit on the first salvo.[1] Scharnhorst's foremost turret ("Anton") was disabled after a while, and another salvo destroyed the ship's aeroplane hangar. Bey turned north, but was engaged by the cruisers Norfolk and Belfast, and turned east at a high speed of 31 knots.
Bey was able to put some more distance between Scharnhorst and the British ships to increase his prospects of success. He had also scored two hits on the Duke of York. However, his ship's fortunes took a dramatic turn for the worse at 18:20 hours when a shell fired by Duke of York, at extreme range, pierced her armour belt and destroyed the no. 1 boiler room. Scharnhorst's speed dropped to only 22 knots, though immediate repair work allowed it to regain to 26 knots. She was now vulnerable to the attacks of the destroyers. Five minutes later, Bey sent his final radio message to the German naval command: "We will fight on until the last shell is fired." [2]
At 18:50 hours, Scharnhorst turned to starboard to engage the destroyers Savage and Saumarez, but this allowed Scorpion and the Norwegian destroyer Stord to attack, scoring one hit on the starboard side. As Scharnhorst continued to turn to avoid the torpedoes, Savage and Saumarez scored three hits on her port side. Saumarez was hit several times by Scharnhorst's secondary armament and suffered eleven killed and eleven wounded.
Despite the torpedo hits, the battlecruiser still maintained a speed of 22 knots, but it was too slow. Now however, with Scharnhorst illuminated by starshells "hanging over her like a chandelier"[cite this quote], Duke of York and Jamaica resumed fire, at a range of only 10,400 yards (9.5 km). At 19:15, Belfast joined in from the north. The British vessels subjected the German ship to a deluge of shells, and the cruisers Jamaica and Belfast fired their remaining torpedoes at the slowing target. Scharnhorst's end came when the British destroyers Opportune, Virago, Musketeer and Matchless fired a further nineteen torpedoes at her. Wracked with hits and unable to flee, Scharnhorst finally capsized and sank at 19:45 hours on 26 December, her propellers still turning, at an estimated position of 72?‹16?ŒN 28?‹41?ŒE&#65279; / &#65279;72.267?‹N 28.683?‹E&#65279; / 72.267; 28.683. She was later identified and filmed at 72?‹31?ŒN 28?‹15?ŒE&#65279; / &#65279;72.517?‹N 28.25?‹E&#65279; / 72.517; 28.25Coordinates: 72?‹31?ŒN 28?‹15?ŒE&#65279; / &#65279;72.517?‹N 28.25?‹E&#65279; / 72.517; 28.25. Of her total complement of 1,968, only 36 were pulled from the frigid waters (none of them was an officer), 30 by Scorpion and 6 by Matchless. Neither Rear Admiral Bey nor Captain Hintze were among those rescued, although they both were reported seen in the water after the ship sank.


Please note night time action in a snow squal,ranges in excess of 10,000 yds.




Plus of all the devices listed in the database,SONAR has been overlooked,because it to hard to model in game programming terms,pull the other one it has bells on.Without SONAR it would be the submarine that would be the master of the oceans and not the aircraft carrier,if you can't see it how can you attack it,the game is massive yet this vital invention is overlooked,come on implement it into the game now!!!!![:@][:@]

I think that unless a ship has sonar listed in it's weapons loadout,that it should not be able to attack a sub with depth charges or whatever, simple solution is just list sonar as a device in the database,and unless a ship has it in it's weapons load out no attack allowed against subs simple.

So sonar + depthcharges etc listed on board a ships weapons system,ship allowed to attack submarine's if not both listed then no attack allowed yes /no maybe perhaps ? The sonar does not even need to be programmed to do anything,other than be used in combination with depthcharges etc.

[Bluebook]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet
Plus the fact that ships of criuser size and above carried aircraft for search purposes.[:'(]

Yeah, I dont think those were launched during thunderstorms however...

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Yes I know there was a thunderstorm in the listed combat action,but there are hundreds of planes on search mission in the game,your telling me that with all the sighting reports that a TF had no idea that an enemy force was close by,at some point in the days leading up to the combat action?[;)]