Why not free production?

[Hexagon]

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it, create early the PzIVg, leave PzIII producction and use PzIII chasis only for StugIIIF??? 5.000 panthers starting their use in Kursk (middle 1943) VS 8.000 PzIV but ready earlier when germans fight to win not fight to dont be defeated???

Again, armies start wars with the material that they have but dont end with the same material or in West allies use the Lee??? in the Pacific armor dont be "modern" and light tanks have a good actuation (Stuart).

PD: if they say that plan do a future game with producction dont add it in this game is a time problem and a way to sell 2 times the same game, dont search "historical" excuses [:-]

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it, create early the PzIVg, leave PzIII producction and use PzIII chasis only for StugIIIF??? 5.000 panthers starting their use in Kursk (middle 1943) VS 8.000 PzIV but ready earlier when germans fight to win not fight to dont be defeated???

Again, armies start wars with the material that they have but dont end with the same material or in West allies use the Lee??? in the Pacific armor dont be "modern" and light tanks have a good actuation (Stuart).

PD: if they say that plan do a future game with producction dont add it in this game is a time problem and a way to sell 2 times the same game, dont search "historical" excuses [:-]

I know you don't want historical excuses, but could the Germans ever have had 5000/8000 of any AFV. It is said that there was never any more than a few hundred Tigers and Panthers, on any of the Fronts, at any one time. [:)]

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it, create early the PzIVg, leave PzIII producction and use PzIII chasis only for StugIIIF??? 5.000 panthers starting their use in Kursk (middle 1943) VS 8.000 PzIV but ready earlier when germans fight to win not fight to dont be defeated???

Again, armies start wars with the material that they have but dont end with the same material or in West allies use the Lee??? in the Pacific armor dont be "modern" and light tanks have a good actuation (Stuart).

PD: if they say that plan do a future game with producction dont add it in this game is a time problem and a way to sell 2 times the same game, dont search "historical" excuses [:-]

All this is a "What If" option anyway. But as far as the Panther is concerned Gunderian spotted the T-34 before the war when he was on a military mission to the USSR. But no one believed him that they, the Russians, could build such a tank. When the met it in combat they changed their tune. The Tiger falls into this category as well ... a reaction to Russian armor, the KV's I think for the Tiger. There is also the Me 262 as an air superiority fighter rather than a fighter bomber, another what if. But if you want to dink with production do it with the initial data file then fight the war. Your opponent get to do the same with his data file, assuming a face to face and not human vs computer, but either would work.

Time to crave this horse up and fire up the barbie ...

[DavidTheGreat]

Strange that the logic read here for not including the production feature is not used for the other monster games WITP and AE, in those games you can even produce the egine types for the planes you intend to build, you almost need a PhD in economics to keep you're industry going as Japanese player.
Why did the designers bother to include all this if it is not relevant ?
In my opinion you produce what you need, you have complete control over troops industry and strategy, no higher echelon dictators to tell you what you can or can not do, you do not fight with what you get, you fight with what you ordered to achieve you're strategic goals, be it offensive or defensive.
To bad , seems like this is like i've read in the Q and A , not a remake of WIR but just a game about the same subject , the east front.

[Jeffrey H.]

I think this is shaping up a little more like a TOAW FiTE scenario than a separate game.

[paullus99]

I'd reserve judgment - from all indications, this will be a monster game & land combat is going to be extremely detailed and complex in nature (much more so than the abstractions done in WiTP & AE).

I have faith that, coming from GG, this game will be in rich in detail as any of us could ask for - even without the production aspects.

[Muzrub]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it, create early the PzIVg, leave PzIII producction and use PzIII chasis only for StugIIIF??? 5.000 panthers starting their use in Kursk (middle 1943) VS 8.000 PzIV but ready earlier when germans fight to win not fight to dont be defeated???

Again, armies start wars with the material that they have but dont end with the same material or in West allies use the Lee??? in the Pacific armor dont be "modern" and light tanks have a good actuation (Stuart).

PD: if they say that plan do a future game with producction dont add it in this game is a time problem and a way to sell 2 times the same game, dont search "historical" excuses [:-]

I know you don't want historical excuses, but could the Germans ever have had 5000/8000 of any AFV. It is said that there was never any more than a few hundred Tigers and Panthers, on any of the Fronts, at any one time. [:)]

Geewiz its not even a matter of historical argument- its a matter of options!

Its 2009- games have evolved.
They don't have to be so linear anymore.

Just allow the player to tick a box- historical or player control - its that easy!

Anything less is starting to become money grabbing.......... Unless a DLC is involved.
Even WIR allowed for production manipulation- and man that's as old as the hills.......

[Sentinel Six]

ORIGINAL: Muzrub

Geewiz its not even a matter of historical argument- its a matter of options!

Its 2009- games have evolved.
They don't have to be so linear anymore.

Just allow the player to tick a box- historical or player control - its that easy!

Anything less is starting to become money grabbing.......... Unless a DLC is involved.
Even WIR allowed for production manipulation- and man that's as old as the hills.......

Why don't we have a poll to see if prospective players would like the option for production control. Like Mazrub I'd like to see an option to control production, if you don't want to don't tick the box. Seems strange that practically every other in depth strategy game (including Gary's other works) allow it but this one will not.

[Rasputitsa]

It has been made perfectly clear, many times in these posts, that there will be no control of production in WiTE. Additionally, the producers have not given any commitment to include it in any development of the game. I am not using historical arguments to agree, or justify that decision, I personally hope to see as much flexibility as possible in the game. However, recognising that this is how the game is going to be, I am making the best of it, by concluding that this is how it was for most commanders during WW2. Fight with what you're given and enjoy the game.

It would be nice to make the production decisions that Hitler failed to make and roll over your opponent, but very few High Commands had that option, so I can live with what we are going to get. I will buy the game and from what we have seen so far, it will be a good East Front experience, all the Beta Testers say so. I still have WIR running, if I need the whole 9 yards. [:)]

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it,

But why wouldn't the Germans attempt to create a Tank to defeat the better enemy weapons they are encountering? Do you want to change things in ways that are reasonable or play fantasy Island???

I am more than happy to have a "Don't do Panther" option, provided the Germans suffer a morale penalty after the option is selected. How are the 8000 PZIVs going to feel about life knowing the new Rusian weapons from 1944 can hit them from all sorts of ranges, and will often be impervious in ways they weren't when Panther was around.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it,

But why wouldn't the Germans attempt to create a Tank to defeat the better enemy weapons they are encountering? Do you want to change things in ways that are reasonable or play fantasy Island???

I am more than happy to have a "Don't do Panther" option, provided the Germans suffer a morale penalty after the option is selected. How are the 8000 PZIVs going to feel about life knowing the new Rusian weapons from 1944 can hit them from all sorts of ranges, and will often be impervious in ways they weren't when Panther was around.

come on now, the gun on the late IV's was a very good 75, not as good as the 75 on the V, but it could still kill almost any AFV it got a hit on, other then maybe some of the very late models that came out in 45, the issue would be speed and armor, not firepower

but...

the one idea that gets me, so many people are saying, hey it would be easy to do, so do it, just put a option to check it on or off

if it was easy, don't you think it would of been added already ?

[Muzrub]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it,

But why wouldn't the Germans attempt to create a Tank to defeat the better enemy weapons they are encountering? Do you want to change things in ways that are reasonable or play fantasy Island???

I am more than happy to have a "Don't do Panther" option, provided the Germans suffer a morale penalty after the option is selected. How are the 8000 PZIVs going to feel about life knowing the new Rusian weapons from 1944 can hit them from all sorts of ranges, and will often be impervious in ways they weren't when Panther was around.

come on now, the gun on the late IV's was a very good 75, not as good as the 75 on the V, but it could still kill almost any AFV it got a hit on, other then maybe some of the very late models that came out in 45, the issue would be speed and armor, not firepower

but...

the one idea that gets me, so many people are saying, hey it would be easy to do, so do it, just put a option to check it on or off

if it was easy, don't you think it would of been added already ?

No, because it seems it was never considered, nor was it apart of the original concept from what I can gather......

As such- it was a Grave Error....

Also there are plenty of other games that are more complicated, detailed and far more advanced............
To my regret none too many focused on the Eastern Front- if there was one, or more - I do believe we'd be looking at a very different kettle of fish here!

Much like the war- technology leaps dramatically, and designs were driven through competition and the desire to survive.

If only the Eastern Front PC gaming genre faced the same perils- if it did this game would be a Panther, but alas the makers believe we only need a PV III to get the job done!

Is that a KV I see on the horizon?

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Muzrub


No, because it seems it was never considered, nor was it apart of the original concept from what I can gather......

As such- it was a Grave Error....

Also there are plenty of other games that are more complicated, detailed and far more advanced............
To my regret none too many focused on the Eastern Front- if there was one, or more - I do believe we'd be looking at a very different kettle of fish here!

From the earlier posts on this issue it is clear that Control of Production was considered, there seems to have been quite an in-house discussion on the subject (read the posts from the Beta Testers). They say that the developers have decided to prioritise on the main features of the game, bearing in mind the other games that are also in the pipeline, there is not an unlimited pool of programing capacity. I am also waiting for the new 'Carrier Force' - games in the hand are better than Production Control sometime, never. [:)]

[Hard Sarge]

thanks Rasp, you were able to say it much nicer then I would of been able to

I don't know why, people think that the people on the inside working on the game, don't know anything about what is going on, on the inside

we got a very good group of testers, very much detail people, and some of the new blood are just as detail minded

if something doesn't make it into the game, that could/would/should of, it is not going because none of the testers never thought about it

in fact, we maybe have asked for 10 times the stuff that is being asked for here, some times you get lucky

[Muzrub]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

thanks Rasp, you were able to say it much nicer then I would of been able to

I don't know why, people think that the people on the inside working on the game, don't know anything about what is going on, on the inside

we got a very good group of testers, very much detail people, and some of the new blood are just as detail minded

if something doesn't make it into the game, that could/would/should of, it is not going because none of the testers never thought about it

in fact, we maybe have asked for 10 times the stuff that is being asked for here, some times you get lucky

Nobody is knocking the commitment of both the play testers and the programmers of the game.

Nor am I in particular pointing negative fingers at anyone's hard work- I also don't think there is any need to allude that you would have been more aggressive with your replies to my comments. And it seems obvious that your disappointed with the fact that not everyone is sharing a common vision here.

I am merely pointing out what I believe, and from what we all can gather- what others believe is a floor in the games concept, and design.

Now I'm sure the game will sell-

I'll even buy a copy, but there was a greater chance of it selling more with production included.
Now we can quibble about historical facts, data- whatever.

But the main issue is, and it continues to remain so is the lack of an option for production.
You can either be upset by my honesty, and allude to sterner comments in reply, or you can just agree to disagree.

But what is important to remember is that your not making this game as a favor to us all- its not out of the kindness of your hearts that brings the game into reality. Its a marketable product when its all said and done- it's not just about being a fan of Gary, or a WWII enthusiast- its about the dollars and cents.
And about the buyer getting bang for his buck- and in these hard times we all want value for money. That's why I believe not having a production option hurts the game.
It's nothing personal- it just is........

Also the possibility of releasing a game with production added, in the future in some sort of Generals edition doesn't seem right either- making the consumer buy again, at top dollar another version of the game with production options seems to be double dipping. When it should have been included anyhow.
Its not about paying for extra work either- I would have paid for that in edition (1) if it was included.

[Hard Sarge]

and where is this money coming from that we will be getting ? (I get to tell people I was a Alpha/Beta tester, and they will look at me and ask what is that)

I think you need to reread what I did say, I said he was able to say it nicer then I could, maybe nicer was the wrong word ? maybe better, or more to the point

and, what makes you think, that only you people are the ones who are asking about production ?

we are telling you what we got, not what we want or think should be, but what we got

[wworld7]

I would have liked production included in the game.

That said, I also understand the concept of priorities in the design process of a software program.

It is not simple or as easy as many people make it out to be.

Wish lists get cut down, and cut down again, and sometimes again, to reach a production schedule that meets the requirements that have been set (almost always tied to available resources for the project (money, programming time, testing time, and a host of other factions that have their own restrictions).

At a certain point the project plan is approved and things are set in stone (for the most part).

Without being part of this process of horse trading one cannot know what ideas got traded for other ideas or what ideas were too costly in terms of resources.

Possibly, we could have been offered a game which looks to be interesting but does not include production or one less interesting that included production.

So far, I am still looking forward to this game.

I would find it difficult to say mistakes were made until they actually release the product. Perhaps at that point a better case could be made for leaving this or that feature out and including production.

At least at that point this debate would sound like an informed discussion rather than than what it sounds like now.

[PyleDriver]

Guys this is the game I dreamed of some 40 years ago. I've been testing it for 14 months now. Every month new great ideas hit which make it better and funner. The production option was one of my pressing points 11 months ago, I really dont think about it now. Theres so much on my plate now I don't even think about it anymore...Research is built into the game, new models of armor come out as historical. This is all I've played during this time and I'm still sucked in...Were working on full scenarios for 42 and 43 now and mini-map scenarios also...This is going to be one of Garys best, I think the best...

[Zort]

One of the issues that I see with free production, especially with an east front game only, is how much of the production is sent to other fronts. I'd love to have some type of production option but it's not a game breaker. As others have said you are the commander of the front not the production manager.

I am hoping the AI is good since I am a solo player most of the time. Thanks guys for your hard work.

[jshan]

I am totally comfortable with the decision made to leave production out of this game. If it comes in an upgrade, I'll enjoy it then. For now, I trust the game will be another of GG's excellent simulations.

WJS