'stuffing' the border

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: buckyzoom

Something I'm seeing in the two games I'm playing currently is the German player allowing the claim, denying Hungary's and Bulgaria's claims and then DOWing Bulgaria right off the bat.

I'm interested to see how this plays out...

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I've done exactly that to get the Germans to declare a couple times, quite successfully. One time the German was just spinning his wheels anyway - until I launched the Bulgarian Gambit, even re-orging the TRS to land an HQ and a MECH - it was like throwing out a foot long sucker minnow under a big ole bobber (the TB-3s are soo nice). I'm not afraid of a 1941 Barb as the Russians at all - unless my western "Allies" are weak. I played a game this year though, where the deeper the Germans went into Russia, the more carriers the US built. (I was Japan). This didn't work out too good for the good guys.

One time Uncle Joe even had to summon Mao to the Urals to help out, things were looking bleak, but I was still across the Vistula by the fall of 1944.

Plus, if you lose your army in 1941, you can scrap the junk earlier and build up a better % of the white prints.

What about Hungary?

[buckyzoom]

In both cases (I'm in two games and wind up playing maybe twice a month) the German player has opted to activate Rumania and use their forces to siege Sofia. Again in both cases they attacked France and this is where the difference start.

In one game France fell in JAN/FEB '40. In the second game France is fighting on and will fall traditionally in late MAY/JUNE or JUL/AUG. If the GE player is willing to drop the O-chit its likely over.

Another difference in the game and part of why France fell in '40 is that the BEF went to Albania and has just activated Yugoslavia. The Axis allowed the CW and France to DOW Italy. Both Italian transports have been sunk along with four or five SCS. I think there are currently 11 Italian SCS in the repair pool (at the end of the MAY/JUN '40 turn).

Interestingly the US is still on a pretty traditional US Entry path in the game where France fell early.

In the game where France is still fighting the US is screaming in.

My expectation is that in both games they'll mop up Eastern Europe on the way to Russia.

TTFN,

b5

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

What about Hungary?
[/quote]

[Zorachus99]

Hi All,
 
I just want to let you know that the stuff is alive and well.  It effectively removes the chance of doing Barb 41.
 
Steps to reproduce?
 
1) Ignore chits (they offset on average in 41)
2) Declare war on Japan with The USSR and build Mil.
3) Build all other USSR garrison efficient units.
 
You can fight on the pacific map with a few good units worth just a small amount of garrison, and stuff Germany every time even with a lower-than-average chit pull.
 
I know this is a contested issue on wifdiscussion list, but I recently experienced a stuff... and have a dim view WIF now.
 
I moved about 90% of my army to the east but it was completely futile...  I've done Barb probably 20 times but never so blatantly stuffed.
 
The people out there who buy the game expecting to DOW the USSR are going to be very dissapointed if you create a USSR AI that stuffs. [:-]
 
My 2 cents AI wise.
 
How many people do you know that buy a WWII simulation to find out they can't DOW USSR?  Many purists would say that Germany could have attacked early if not for Yugo and Greece.  Historically July 22 1941 was the DOW.  In WIF and MWIF, if the USSR chooses to prevent it, they will.
 
Gamey ways to fix the problem:
1) Have italy conquer poland and very carefully choose what hexes will remain german (this makes the pact irrelevant as Italy can DOW USSR; ZOC and ground strike a bunch of border units reducing their garrison to zero, and then Germany can DOW theoretically afterward).
2) Have italy send every BP to Germany, have Germany build only Mil, Inf, Mech, Arm (planes are garrison inefficient).  Watch Germany completely lose control over the skies of France.  Have I ever mentioned that aircraft are the core force multiplier that makes france conquerable?
 
I doubt many agree completely from this evaluation, but as the game designer, you are entitled to one persons opinion.  Besides, one persons drivel is anothers mana.
 
Cheers
 
 

[sajbalk]

I agree that the USSR can stuff. However, you should agree that the allies will not resign if the USSR tries to stuff, fails, and finds all its units flipped at the border and destroyed.

Other ways to fight the stuff:
1) play with Politics in Flames units. This gives Germany a free SS unit for Vienna, Paris, Amsterdam, and possibly Zagreb.
2) Hold off on aligning Rumania. Then Russia must congregate in Poland and the Baltics, where you can more easily kill them.
3) Surrender as Japan and thus remove all the MIL, wasting the USSR build points. You would want to do this in M/A.

The chits are not irrelevant. It is rare that the chits will be exactly 2:1, so you must count and recount.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

3) Surrender as Japan and thus remove all the MIL, wasting the USSR build points. You would want to do this in M/A.

This option is not in MWif

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

3) Surrender as Japan and thus remove all the MIL, wasting the USSR build points. You would want to do this in M/A.

This option is not in MWif

I am not sure what you mean by surrender.[&:] If you are referring to the the ability of the USSR or Japan to force a mutual peace under certain conditions, then that is part of MWIF (though not coded yet).

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

3) Surrender as Japan and thus remove all the MIL, wasting the USSR build points. You would want to do this in M/A.

This option is not in MWif

I am not sure what you mean by surrender.[&:] If you are referring to the the ability of the USSR or Japan to force a mutual peace under certain conditions, then that is part of MWIF (though not coded yet).

Do you mean the original Mutual Peace rule or the new one where either side can surrender any time?

[BallyJ]

It is interesting to note that there is another tread going that talks about how easy it is to take Gibralta and how this is a great plan!?
This is a game based on history not history.
I don't think stuffing the border will always work for Russia.
When it does fail the USSR is caught on the border with no where to run.
This game has worked well for a very long time.
Give it a go.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
Gamey ways to fix the problem:
1) Have italy conquer poland and very carefully choose what hexes will remain german (this makes the pact irrelevant as Italy can DOW USSR; ZOC and ground strike a bunch of border units reducing their garrison to zero, and then Germany can DOW theoretically afterward).

This just plain won't work. 19.5 says: "Axis units may not cross the partition line after the USSR exercises its rights unless Germany and the USSR are at war." So Russia claims East Poland on Impulse 2 and the "common border" for the neutrality pact has nothing to do with it. The Partition Line has everything to do with it. Italian land units and air units cannot cross it. So they have to move or fly south through Rumania or north through Lithuania to get at the Russians.

So then Russia claims the Baltic States and Germany aligns Rumania and the common border rule then says Italians must teleport out of any hexes within 3 hexes of the Russian border the instant Italy DoWs Russia. And all those hexes become uncrossable for Italian air units.

Plus Italy will have a very tough time taking out Poland by itself. Any help from Germany with that which results in German controlled hexes in West Poland will create problems for Italy due to the common border. But this is just a minor irritation compared to the Partition Line rule.

[composer99]

Paul, what he means is Italian troops take part in the attacks on Lodz and Warsaw and occupy those cities, thus giving the credit to Italy for the conquest. So at least some of the hexes that would be on the common border are now Italian hexes and are no longer part of the common border (to be part of the common border between Germany and USSR Axis-controlled hexes must be German-controlled hexes as per 9.5).

The partition line is in fact the irrelevant factor in this case as what matters is Italian hexes are now adjacent to USSR hexes, allowing the Italians to enter USSR territory, ZoC units if they are stacked up front and ground strike others in the event that the USSR is trying to stuff.

Gamey but legal per the rules.

To quote the relevant passage:

Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries). [Emphasis mine.]

For the Axis, 'you' is Germany when discussing the Germany-USSR non-aggression pact. Italy doesn't count, nor do Italian hexes in Poland lined up against USSR hexes.

[Cheesehead]

I just want to let you know that the stuff is alive and well. It effectively removes the chance of doing Barb 41.

I agree with you on this, Justin. I think the Stuff rule is important for 1940 Barbs, which are rare, but stuffing in 1941 is just unrealistic. It creates a game that is likely to end in 1941. PBEM games only makes the issue worse because the Russians usually can see what the German chits look like. When I play USSR I usually make it clear to my opponents that I won't attempt to stuff in 1941. I recommend this gentlemens agreement before starting a game... call it a house rule.

Cheers

John

[BallyJ]

Only if you can see the chit?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Paul, what he means is Italian troops take part in the attacks on Lodz and Warsaw and occupy those cities, thus giving the credit to Italy for the conquest. So at least some of the hexes that would be on the common border are now Italian hexes and are no longer part of the common border (to be part of the common border between Germany and USSR Axis-controlled hexes must be German-controlled hexes as per 9.5).

The partition line is in fact the irrelevant factor in this case as what matters is Italian hexes are now adjacent to USSR hexes, allowing the Italians to enter USSR territory, ZoC units if they are stacked up front and ground strike others in the event that the USSR is trying to stuff.

Gamey but legal per the rules.

To quote the relevant passage:

Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries). [Emphasis mine.]

For the Axis, 'you' is Germany when discussing the Germany-USSR non-aggression pact. Italy doesn't count, nor do Italian hexes in Poland lined up against USSR hexes.

Christopher you are missing the point. AXIS units may not cross the partition line. Read 19.5 (not 9.5). Even if Italian hexes border on USSR hexes they are still on the other side of the partition line. When at war with Russia, how do they attack or ground strike without crossing the partition line?

The partition line exists as a result of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact and is not magically erased by having a hex on the other side controlled by Italy.

Edit: The Italian ZOCs would extend but what Russian would be dumb enough seeing them there to not put his garrison units two hexes back?

[micheljq]

This discussion has been going over and over, on and on, on the Yahoo forum for over than a year if I am correct. [>:]

[lavisj]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

This discussion has been going over and over, on and on, on the Yahoo forum for over than a year if I am correct. [>:]

Yes, and as Hakon pointed out the math is pretty well, defined. It all comes down to chits and to Germany being able to have much more than twice what Russia has.
And the possible counters are also know: Italians in Lithuania, or Italians conquering Hungary.... both very weird. [I thought IT in Poland was one, but I stand corrected]

CBV and the new surrender rule between JP and USSR helps somewhat, but Russia still has a great chance to stuff if it tries.

[paulderynck]

Actually the discovery of the "Partition Line effect" (or rediscovery) is relatively recent over on the Yahoo forum. As for stuffing and Super Balbo and how to keep Russia alive after a 41 Barb - yes it has been discussed a great deal. But that is the title of this thread, n'est pas?

[rkr1958]

I never played WIF before so pardon the elementary question.  Also, I've read through this thread and if I missed it I apologize but could someone explain in layman's terms with stuffing is and why it prevents Germany from successfully invading Russian in June 1941.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

(1) This just plain won't work. 19.5 says: "Axis units may not cross the partition line after the USSR exercises its rights unless Germany and the USSR are at war." So Russia claims East Poland on Impulse 2 and the "common border" for the neutrality pact has nothing to do with it. The Partition Line has everything to do with it. Italian land units and air units cannot cross it. So they have to move or fly south through Rumania or north through Lithuania to get at the Russians.

(2) So then Russia claims the Baltic States and Germany aligns Rumania and the common border rule then says Italians must teleport out of any hexes within 3 hexes of the Russian border the instant Italy DoWs Russia. And all those hexes become uncrossable for Italian air units.

(3) Plus Italy will have a very tough time taking out Poland by itself. Any help from Germany with that which results in German controlled hexes in West Poland will create problems for Italy due to the common border. But this is just a minor irritation compared to the Partition Line rule.

The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945

(1) True, once 19.5.1 is exercised Axis units cannot cross the partition line until Germany and the USSR are at war.

The USSR cannot claim Eastern Poland until the 2nd impulse as per 9. Declaring war.

I hope the Axis has captured Lodz and Warsaw. Because when 19.5.1 is exercised the 3 hex and/or 3 hexdot common border changes and Germany cannot have units in East Prussia, in Lodz, or adjacent to or in Warsaw.

Rumania is a neutral minor country Italy can’t enter a hex controlled by a neutral minor country.


(2) True, the 3 hex and/or 3 hexdot common border changes again.

If 19.5.1 is exercised by the USSR then Germany may want to rethink aligning Rumania to keep the USSR “Garrison value” down and therefore enhance their chance to break the neutrality pact.



(3) Even though Germany and Italy co-operate the soonest Italy may DoW Poland is on the 2nd impulse and start moving toward Poland.

If 19.5.1 is exercised by the USSR on the 2nd impulse and the Axis has not captured Lodz and Warsaw there is no way for the Axis to conquer Poland.

On the plus side Germany should have a fairly large “Garrison value” to break the neutrality pact.





But the Italians can fly around the partition line once the USSR occupies the Baltic States. If Germany aligns Rumania then Rumania can be flown over by the Italians.

But you might not want to because then the USSR can break the neutrality pact.

Enemy aircraft
You can break a neutrality pact you have with a major power during a friendly declaration of war step if:
after you entered into the pact, an aircraft controlled by a major power you are at war with has flown a mission against a hex or unit you control; and
that aircraft started its mission in a hex controlled by the major power you have the pact with.

[lavisj]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

(1) True, once 19.5.1 is exercised Axis units cannot cross the partition line until Germany and the USSR are at war.

The USSR cannot claim Eastern Poland until the 2nd impulse as per 9. Declaring war.

I hope the Axis has captured Lodz and Warsaw. Because when 19.5.1 is exercised the 3 hex and/or 3 hexdot common border changes and Germany cannot have units in East Prussia, in Lodz, or adjacent to or in Warsaw.

Rumania is a neutral minor country Italy can’t enter a hex controlled by a neutral minor country.

Actually, once Russia claims East Poland, the German units West of the Partition line are unaffected. The only units which are prohibited from entering the pact area, are units at war with one of the power owning the common border. In this case: Italy.

(2) True, the 3 hex and/or 3 hexdot common border changes again.

If 19.5.1 is exercised by the USSR then Germany may want to rethink aligning Rumania to keep the USSR “Garrison value” down and therefore enhance their chance to break the neutrality pact.

The alignement of Rumania actually bring around 10 points of garrison to the Germans I believe (in 41). But at the expense of allowing the Russians to stuff from a much safer place (not East Poland). Therefore, there are cases when aligning Rumania might be desirable, even required, and others where it should not be done.

(3) Even though Germany and Italy co-operate the soonest Italy may DoW Poland is on the 2nd impulse and start moving toward Poland.

If 19.5.1 is exercised by the USSR on the 2nd impulse and the Axis has not captured Lodz and Warsaw there is no way for the Axis to conquer Poland.

On the plus side Germany should have a fairly large “Garrison value” to break the neutrality pact.

See answer to your point above. German units can always enter their own pact area.
I agree that Germany shoud have a large enough garrison to be able to declare war on Russia. But as it stands, if Russia decides to stuff, Germany will be very hard pressed to get what it needs.

But the Italians can fly around the partition line once the USSR occupies the Baltic States. If Germany aligns Rumania then Rumania can be flown over by the Italians.

But you might not want to because then the USSR can break the neutrality pact.

Actually Italian planes could not fly accross the Rumanian - Russian border as they are prohibited to enter the common border area if they are at war with USSR.
The rule you mentioned would be if Italy were to fly units from Germany... for exemple, long range bombers or Navs accross the Baltic to go hit targets in Lithuania.... or accross the Black Sea to hit targets in the Ukraine.

Not very practical, and can only be done with very few planes, and on a very limited area.
At this point, the threat of Russia breaking the pact is a non issue, as a broken pact is exactly what is expected from that tactic.

In order to use IT planes to GS Russians on the border, the best way is to have IT conquer Lithuania or Hungary.
To take out Hungary, have IT DoW in SO39 on impulse 3. Hungary has to be aligned by France or CW, and so Germany will also be at war with Hungary. Have them kill the hungarian units, but not enter the capital, then when IT is active have them rail a unit nearby and have IT take the capital and conquer the country.
Now IT has a common border with Russia from which to ZOC and GS Russians in late MA41 or in MJ41.

Jerome

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I never played WIF before so pardon the elementary question.  Also, I've read through this thread and if I missed it I apologize but could someone explain in layman's terms with stuffing is and why it prevents Germany from successfully invading Russian in June 1941.

Stuffing is the term used when Russia sends nearly every unit to the German border in '41 and prevents Barbarossa from happening.

If your opponent does this, and declares war on Japan to gain access to their cheapest units to 'stuff' the border with, your chance of having a historical '41 Barbarossa are about 2%.

Interesting that DOW'ing Japan is what makes this possible. Without the DOW of Japan a 'stuff' will succeed 60%+ of the time.

There are gamey ways to improve your chances, but sending every german unit to the USSR border to find out you have been stuffed will potentially cost you Italy or France. Any attempt to keep a western garrison with any Germans sends the chance of stuffing way up.

The rule is broken. Germany cannot go historically into USSR without some crazy gaminess, unless the USSR decides to let them.

Ask any Russian player, would they prefer Barb to start in '41 or '42?

If you can't do barb '41 in Wif there are only two real strategies left. No guesswork left for the allies on what the axis objective is...

The fact that the historical outcome which was delayed by Greece and Yugo is near impossible until some magical force goes away in J/F 42. It makes for an extremely poor simuation.

On the other hand, some people defend the stuff because they believe that USSR dies 90% if you let Barb happen. I've never seen these claims substatiated, but that would be another major problem with the game if true.