Stealth and the uses thereof

[Astorax]

Hey guys, I was playing the other day and got to wondering about the stealth component and had some questions.

1. Will a stealth component only effect the performance of a proximity array or will it also effect a long range scanner?

2. You can apparently put a stealth component on, say, a gas mining station. Will that prevent creatures from finding it?

Anyways, any hard info on this would be appreciated.

[the1sean]

Hey Astorax, I'm not an expert, but from what I read in the manual stealth reduces the detection range of all scanners by the same ratio regardless of scanner type. I havent tried putting them on my mining stations, mostly scout ships so far. I guess that might make them harder to find, but the parts are pretty expensive, and once they find the station the jig is up.

[torrenal]

As I understand it, stealth doesn't matter in-system, as you can see everything in that system just by having eyes there.

That makes stealth good for:
Hiding ships in transit.
Hiding bases that are not placed in a system (and as previously stated, once once a stealth base is spotted, the jig is up).

For hiding ships in transit, I prefer speed to stealth -- Nothing beats picking the war-zone and getting there before the enemy does.  I expect there's a real use for stealth, I just haven't found when+where to apply it properly.
//Torrenal

[Gareth_Bryne]

In general, stealth now is completely useless. IF the AI gets REALLY killer, and the endgame you will need to prevail against overwhelming odds using stealth attack groups, OR DW gets multiplayer,then it might have some use.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: torrenal

Hiding bases that are not placed in a system (and as previously stated, once once a stealth base is spotted, the jig is up).

Hiding bases not in a system is futile: The base will be spotted while it is being constructed, before the stealth generator is online. The AI doesn't seem to consider bases in the middle of nowhere IMPORTANT, though.

So, basically, stealth is pretty useless, the AI probably knows where you are anyway. But since you're not concerned about an arbitrary limit of space most of the time, it won't HURT to stick a stealth module on a ship. You never know.

[sbach2o]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Hiding bases not in a system is futile: The base will be spotted while it is being constructed, before the stealth generator is online. The AI doesn't seem to consider bases in the middle of nowhere IMPORTANT, though.

So, basically, stealth is pretty useless, the AI probably knows where you are anyway. But since you're not concerned about an arbitrary limit of space most of the time, it won't HURT to stick a stealth module on a ship. You never know.

Although I more or less agree with that, here the AI is probably subject to the same limitations as I am:

I may see something while I see it (duh!), but then I forget. So while I may see a base with stealth generator while it is being constructed, once the generator comes online (not a small feat for a base in deep space, it needs to be supplied with fuel first, energy collectors won't help) I will be hard pressed to find it again. That is, if I forget to mark the place somehow - e.g. hotkey something in the area. Or could you hotkey the object itself? Once it's gone from your scanners, would the hotkey find it anyway? I never tried this, it feels too much like cheating.

Same goes for all kind of things that I see, then don't see and forget how to find again. Sometimes they're hidden in plain sight, like a Kaltor in a system I have colonized, but lurking somewhere off at an asteroid, or an abandoned ship to which I would like to send a constructor for repairs - if I only could remember where the bugger is hiding. So it goes. Of course, the AI is better than me at finding these objects hiding in plain sight. They are only hidden from the human interface, not the scanners.

[the1sean]

I think that stealth on construction, exploration, and colony ships is worth it. Those ships usually have very little in the way of defenses, and once I add stealth systems to them their survivability seems to skyrocket. I would put them on private sector craft but the cost/benefit analysis fails.

[sbach2o]

ORIGINAL: the1sean

I think that stealth on construction, exploration, and colony ships is worth it. Those ships usually have very little in the way of defenses, and once I add stealth systems to them their survivability seems to skyrocket. I would put them on private sector craft but the cost/benefit analysis fails.

Can only be worth it, if the AI intercepts these ships from the galaxy map. I think it doesn't do it. If a constructor, explorer or colony ship is attacked, I have the impression that it's always done by a military ship that happened to be in the same system or (in the case of pirates) the enemy was after something else initially. In these cases cloaking wouldn't have helped at all.

Putting a cloaking device on a colony ship is even more of a waste of money/resources because of how small the average life-span of them tends do be.

[torrenal]

Cloak is also a large component, and of limited utility on larger vessels. Probably cheaper and more effective to load in some shields & armor... Or have sufficient naval forces running around that your weak ships are never far from help.

//Torrenal

[Merker]

Well, by the time I discover stealth tech I have such a big fleet I don't want to hide it. If the enemy sees it they thing thrice before trying to attack my systems, at least that's how it worked so far. Perhaps it ought to be an earlier tech, or might be useful for setting up ambushes on that pesky enemy fleet that keeps running away(they do run away, amazingly [X(])

Cheers

Merker out.

[torrenal]

Might be some truth to them seeing the fleet and not hassling you.

Every time I mass-retrotfit ships, the pirates pick that moment to become a Major Pain.
Not once or twice. But Every Single Time I've watched piracy during a retrofit.
//Torrenal

[Merker]

Indeed, pirates are smart(most of them at least). I've only ever seen them attack the less protected parts of my empire. When my fleet shows up, it's like there was never a pirate ship there at all, since the beginning of time.

 And ever since I have a huge fleet I have to declare war on people, otherwise everyone just fears to do anything but toss random threats. I have yet to see someone threaten me with 'serious consequences' and keep their word[:'(]. When my fleet was measly, I had war declared on me every year, especially by the blasted sluken....

[torrenal]

Which explains why said empires like to rattle their sticks around when my fleet is on an extended maneuver, but shape up the moment my fleet returns...(Had to declare war on the lill stinker. Least wise, I won't need to declare it ever again for that empire -- never
hurts having a few 5-8 extra troop transports in the early game).
//Torrenal

[the1sean]

ORIGINAL: sbach2o

ORIGINAL: the1sean
I think that stealth on construction, exploration, and colony ships is worth it. Those ships usually have very little in the way of defenses, and once I add stealth systems to them their survivability seems to skyrocket. I would put them on private sector craft but the cost/benefit analysis fails.

Can only be worth it, if the AI intercepts these ships from the galaxy map. I think it doesn't do it. If a constructor, explorer or colony ship is attacked, I have the impression that it's always done by a military ship that happened to be in the same system or (in the case of pirates) the enemy was after something else initially. In these cases cloaking wouldn't have helped at all.

Putting a cloaking device on a colony ship is even more of a waste of money/resources because of how small the average life-span of them tends do be.

Hmm, I have observed tons of pirates pounce/warp in right as my colony ship arrives, like they were planning the ambush, it does NOT look like happenstance. Like I said, I have put the systems on Exploration and Colony Ships and it definitely appears to make a difference.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, the Galactopedia states that resources used to build a colony ship to transfer to the new colony, so you could think of it as an investment

ORIGINAL: torrenal

Cloak is also a large component, and of limited utility on larger vessels. Probably cheaper and more effective to load in some shields & armor... Or have sufficient naval forces running around that your weak ships are never far from help.

//Torrenal

Since colony and exploration ships are often quite far from home, I think some extra armor AND a stealth component is worth the investment. Just one colony ship lost to pirates is a big loss in time and money, even in the later game. I was also playing in a very hostile galaxy, and trying to colonize places my new colony module tech had opened up. It can be hard to send ships to cover over a dozen systems at once and fight wars, so my colony ships had to be more self-sufficient...

[the1sean]

Yeah, I refit fleets in shifts, and only after I have refitted my escorts and frigates (which I leave on auto to protect shipping lanes, and build more than the AI generally suggests). The AI, both Pirate and Empire, definitely keeps tabs on the fighting status of your armada...

[torrenal]

ORIGINAL: the1sean
Hmm, I have observed tons of pirates pounce/warp in right as my colony ship arrives, like they were planning the ambush, it does NOT look like happenstance. Like I said, I have put the systems on Exploration and Colony Ships and it definitely appears to make a difference.

I have watched pirates hyper in/out frequently around independent colonies. So much so that I've occasioned to drop entire fleets on-top of a colony to ensure it's pirate-free status when the ship finally arrives -- and even then I lose the odd ship (dang nabbit, why did they pick THEN to start war?)

ORIGINAL: the1sean

ORIGINAL: torrenal
Cloak is also a large component, and of limited utility on larger vessels. Probably cheaper and more effective to load in some shields & armor... Or have sufficient naval forces running around that your weak ships are never far from help.

//Torrenal

Since colony and exploration ships are often quite far from home, I think some extra armor AND a stealth component is worth the investment. Just one colony ship lost to pirates is a big loss in time and money, even in the later game. I was also playing in a very hostile galaxy, and trying to colonize places my new colony module tech had opened up. It can be hard to send ships to cover over a dozen systems at once and fight wars, so my colony ships had to be more self-sufficient...

As previously stated, stealth is of no help within a system. Also, it can be shown that pirates frequent independent colonies -- Stealth is of no help if you are walking into the lions-den. The smart money is on the shield and legs long enough to get away.

I've not tried the more difficult settings yet (tried my last game by giving my opponents a fairly decent head-start, and I managed to level the playing field in the time it took me to meet just one opponent...) Something I need to do, just working my way up to it (and sheesh, but once I get past about 1000 ships in a maximum size galaxy, the game tends to bog down on my PC -- then again, its not the newest model on the market...)
//Torrenal

[the1sean]

Well Torrenal, I usually stick with 700 system games. They max out the empires to 20 (one for each race, of course), and I still think that there is PLENTY of real-estate to fight over. About the pirates issue, I understand that they can see stealthed ships in-system. The issue is that they are seeing colony ships en-route, and following them to the destination. And they dont just do this at independent colonies, they will ambush colony ships going to your average uninhabited planet in an uninhabited sytem. I think that the stealth systems really help keep them from spotting potential targets while they are traveling in hyperspace. But again, I play with max pirates and high aggressiveness settings on 700 planet maps, so I have had to cope with tons of hostiles. Hey, thats my favorite part of the game [:D]