Italian paratrooper problem

Joonas Parviainen · Post by **Joonas Parviainen** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 6:05 pm

My apologies if this has been discussed before, but my Italian paratroopers are
suffering from a truly abysmal mission failure rate...

When I try to airdrop paras from Italian cargo planes, they instantly crash on entering the map. I tried landing them
from German gliders, but they crashed as well, without even token small arms fire from the enemy.

I'm aware that the Italians didn't historically get much practice in airborne operations, but this seems excessive.
Am I missing something here?

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 6:35 pm

I don't think I've used them, but I seem to remember I used them in the Preparing the Way campaign.

I'll give them a quick test and let you know if there is a problem, Joonas. They should not be doing that.

Now tell me, do the planes crash? Or the game itself. That is not clear to me.

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Joonas Parviainen · Post by **Joonas Parviainen** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 6:52 pm

Cargo planes (Italian) and gliders (German)
crash if they contain Italian paras. This is
a problem specific to the Italians: German
and other airborne units are operating
perfectly well.

I've tried altering the mission parameters but haven't found yet settings which would
prevent the instant transport crash & burn.

It appears to me that the game for some
reason treats the aircraft as being fatally
hit by flak when they enter the map.

I'm using version 4.0, and I have a very vague recollection that in some of the earlier versions Italian paradrops worked.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 6:53 pm

I'll check it today...WB

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 6:42 pm

Okay, Joonas, I checked it and yes, you appear to be quite correct.

I bought four Italian tranport planes and they all crashed.

Then I swapped two of them for JU-52s and they flew just fine. The other two Italian ac stil crashed.

I'll do my best to get this one fixed.

WB

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:12 pm

May be a dumb question, and I don't have the oob in front of me now, but is there a speed entered in the speed slot in the editor??

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

AckAck · Post by **AckAck** » Wed Nov 22, 2000 10:17 am

i think it has to do with the inherent bad rating all italians are given. try raising their experience and morale and see if that helps

Joonas Parviainen · Post by **Joonas Parviainen** » Thu Nov 23, 2000 12:08 pm

Originally posted by AckAck:
i think it has to do with the inherent bad rating all italians are given. try raising their experience and morale and see if that helps

That would help them actually perform on the battlefield, and I would have to find new excuses for my string of losses. Other than 'hey, they're Italians, what did you expect?', that is. Anyway, it doesn't seem to be related to their experience levels. They'd abort the mission instead of driving their ac to the ground if it was.

Joonas Parviainen · Post by **Joonas Parviainen** » Thu Nov 23, 2000 12:30 pm

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
Okay, Joonas, I checked it and yes, you appear to be quite correct.

I bought four Italian tranport planes and they all crashed.

The fact that this must have gone unnoticed for quite some time confirms my theory that very few people use Italians except as punching bags or for occasional target practice.

AckAck · Post by **AckAck** » Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:04 pm

Originally posted by Joonas Parviainen:
Anyway, it doesn't seem to be related to their experience levels.

does that mean you tried raising their experience and it didn't work or are you saying that you didn't try it because you don't think it will make a difference.

AckAck · Post by **AckAck** » Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:06 pm

Originally posted by Joonas Parviainen:
The fact that this must have gone unnoticed for quite some time confirms my theory that very few people use Italians except as punching bags or for occasional target practice.

i liked being the italians in previous versions but not in spwaw. they are totally worthless, (even their elite troops) which is a shame because their Trieste Division was top notch.

Joonas Parviainen · Post by **Joonas Parviainen** » Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:23 pm

Originally posted by AckAck:
does that mean you tried raising their experience and it didn't work or are you saying that you didn't try it because you don't think it will make a difference.

I don't think that raising their experience and morale is the kind of solution I would like to use, even if it helped. It's more convenient to just borrow a handful of
JU-52s from the Germans if I ever need to drop some Italian paratroopers on the Brits.

Joonas Parviainen · Post by **Joonas Parviainen** » Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:57 pm

Originally posted by AckAck:
i liked being the italians in previous versions but not in spwaw. they are totally worthless, (even their elite troops) which is a shame because their Trieste Division was top notch.

I think it just reflects the fact that even their elite formations were quite poorly equipped and weren't adequately supplied most of the time. Alpini troops in SPWAW are still almost average, though.

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:19 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joonas Parviainen:
Cargo planes (Italian) and gliders (German)
crash if they contain Italian paras.

The Italian cargo plane has zero FH armor. Give them a FH armor of 24 or something like that and they will fly right.

Joonas Parviainen · Post by **Joonas Parviainen** » Sat Nov 25, 2000 2:18 pm

The Italian cargo plane has zero FH armor. Give them a FH armor of 24 or something like that and they will fly right.[/B]

Thanks. That did the trick.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sun Nov 26, 2000 1:05 pm

Your statement is not quite accurate, Joonas. There are scenarios designed using the Italians.

True, they were not as major a combatant as Germany or Japan, but I have designed a few myself. So have others.

I've never thought of the Italian army as a punching bag for other countries. That is simply not true.

I've just never had an occasion to use Italian paratroopers. Their leaping from aircraft was quite rare doing the war.

But I know that I don't and I hope others don't have a "punching bag" concept of the Italian soldiers during WW2.

A lack of quality leadership and a lack of modernized weaponry were in my mind the biggest setbacks to the Italians. There were courageous and valorous Italians just as in any other army.

I remember occasions in North Africa when the Italians performed well, inflicting defeats on the British. Then there was Gela in Siciliy and finally Italian units that after the armistice served bravely with Allied troops to oust the Germans from their homeland.

So try the Italian scenarios I have done and tell me if you think they are poorly represented.

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Joonas Parviainen · Post by **Joonas Parviainen** » Mon Nov 27, 2000 5:07 pm

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
But I know that I don't and I hope others don't have a "punching bag" concept of the Italian soldiers during WW2.

A lack of quality leadership and a lack of modernized weaponry were in my mind the biggest setbacks to the Italians. There were courageous and valorous Italians just as in any other army.

So try the Italian scenarios I have done and tell me if you think they are poorly represented.

I don't personally share the "punching bag" view. It does seem to be a quite common view among a certain type of wargamers, though. It doesn't help that in many wargames the Italians are represented in a very demeaning way. One wargame ages ago had a Mobile Italian Field Bordello unit and so forth.

The Italians did quite well when permitted by the circumstances. In addition to substandard equipment and leadership, they also suffered from challenging logistics;
it's difficult to keep an army adequately supplied if the only supply route is a thousand-mile dirt-track from Tripoli.

I've tried most of your SPWAW scenarios featuring Italians, and they were very, very good. They in fact inspired me to start constructing a mini-campaign based on 'Operazione C.3', which led to the discovery of the Italian air transport problems.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Mon Nov 27, 2000 7:26 pm

I'm definitely going to try to get this one fixed. The campaign sounds great, Joonas. I hope you will do it.

I'd like to see a hypothetical invasion of Malta using German and Italian paras. I think it would be great! You gonna do it?

WB

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Joonas Parviainen · Post by **Joonas Parviainen** » Thu Nov 30, 2000 2:23 pm

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
I'd like to see a hypothetical invasion of Malta using German and Italian paras. I think it would be great! You gonna do it?

Working on it. It'll take time, though; C.3 isn't too well documented, even for a battle which didn't actually happen.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Thu Nov 30, 2000 7:44 pm

Hi, I have ran complete WWII Campaigns where I select German but buy Italian units then after first battle I change HQ to Italian (A0 always german at first) I have no problem winning early battles (at least draw anyway) As they gain exp/morale they get pretty good. I have also done all the other axis minor allies with success. There are no bad soldiers only poor leaders. You have to fight the battles a little slower intill they are trained.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!